Which would you choose?, Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp Options

[hot_shoe914]

Okay I have come to a point where I am in a delima. I have a '73 2.0 car with the appearance group package that has had all 911 suspension upgrades and I will also be adding GT flares. I was originally going to put a 2.8 IV in it with about 225 horses but now am considering a subie engine putting out about 325 horses or more. I have always been a purist but there is something to be said for smoking the competion through the curves and also being able to dust the muscle cars down the highways. I can get into the 2.8 for around 7000.00 for motor and tranny minus installation. I can get into the subie for about 4800.00 minus installation.

What are the thoughts and opinions out there along with the pros and cons for each. All input would be greatly appreciated.



Donald

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[CliffBraun]

Best choice of all for a 914-4 owner that plans street and some AX is to just go with a nice 2056 and pass on the drag racing. Why not keep thae car as close to stock as possible to retain reliability that was engineered by true engineers rather than barn yard bandits.

As a newbie here, I probably don't add much weight to this discussion, however I'm an ME in training and a big part of that is understanding the trade offs. In my 914 I ended up going for as low mass as possible (also low polar moment), so I was torn between a built Type I and a Type IV. I ended up going with the Type IV because of cost and because of classing.

I've no experience with Jake's engines, but I am suspicious of someone promising those gains and using such language. Anyone who shadow boxes about the engines they build (2.8 type IV is good/ we don't build those often, so you can't use them against us) is kinda stringing you along. Promising two different things based on different engines is kinda a misleading way to do business.

Anyways, I don't mean to rip on Raby, double speak kinda irritates me ever since I read 1984 though. My planned set up is a 2.0 with slightly longer connecting rods, and nicer internals to produce a great deal more torque without sacrificing reliability.

I decided not to go with a 2.4 (not even a 2.8!) because of reliability issues, Andrew broke a 2.4 at an autocross, and I didn't want the slightest chance of that happening. That said, I would be nervous as hell with a 2.8....

Much less one built by someone with a God complex.

I'd be happy to give more details about what I'm building provided the people building it don't have a problem with that. I am very much of the opinion that the advantage in the 914 is being able to maintain velocity through corners, rather than putting a big flippin' engine in it. Ever seen a V8 conversion win an autox?

Just one PS, your response to Chris' comment is complete shit, the entire thread is about a big Type IV, and you comment "Thats why we don't do that. Most all our engines make their power with a 96mm bore that slides right into the stock, non machined case."

To me that's hugely misleading, again, the entire thread is "big IV vs other engine" and you're responding with how the small Type IV is great....

Yeah, most of your engines don't do that, but that's what he's talking about building; I could give a damn if your 1.8 produces infinity horses reliably; a 2.8(especially based on the same case) is an entirely different story.

Incidentally, my no holds barred 914 is a Pauter engine running on methanol, as far as I've read nothing Raby builds can come close. You have to design (or copy) mounts, but it's still better than paying a ton for snake oil that bolts to your stock mounts.



Lemme know how I'm wrong so I can fix myself.

[grantsfo]

I'd be happy to give more details about what I'm building provided the people building it don't have a problem with that. I am very much of the opinion that the advantage in the 914 is being able to maintain velocity through corners, rather than putting a big flippin' engine in it. Ever seen a V8 conversion win an autox?

Yes please more details! I know we have some awesome T4 developers here on West Coast but they have profesionalism to stay off public 914 forums and focus on their work. I'd love to start hearing about other builders and what they are doing with the T4.

There certainly is the money and enthusiasm on the West Coast for a premier T4 builder to emerge. I'd go to a T4 if I could find somone I could trust to buid a motor for me in California. I have the T4 case I was going to use for a Raby motor a couple years ago sitting in my garage.

Now that I'm focusing primarily on AX I may go back to T4 again. But I want something that will put out 200 HP and rev to 7500 RPM.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Jul 3 2008, 09:35 AM

[Chris Hamilton]

Yes please more details! I know we have some awesome T4 developers here on West Coast but they have profesionalism to stay off public 914 forums and focus on their work. I'd love to start hearing about other builders and what they are doing with the T4.

He's getting a rabbit-rods 2.0 built by my dad. He had quite a bit of budget for the project, so we spent quite a while playing with various ideas. Type 1 engines, Type 4 engines, v8s, 6-cylinders, inline 4 cylinders, and the most cost effective solution ended up being the long-rods 2-liter. It uses the stock mounts ( obviously ), runs on pump gas, never leaks, never overheats, revs to 8,000 , and should last him a good 10-20 years of daily driving. The engine ends up being wider than a normal 2.0, but you can still adjust the valves with it in the car.

[grantsfo]

Yes please more details! I know we have some awesome T4 developers here on West Coast but they have profesionalism to stay off public 914 forums and focus on their work. I'd love to start hearing about other builders and what they are doing with the T4.

He's getting a rabbit-rods 2.0 built by my dad. He had quite a bit of budget for the project, so we spent quite a while playing with various ideas. Type 1 engines, Type 4 engines, v8s, 6-cylinders, inline 4 cylinders, and the most cost effective solution ended up being the long-rods 2-liter. It uses the stock mounts ( obviously ), runs on pump gas, never leaks, never overheats, revs to 8,000 , and should last him a good 10-20 years of daily driving. The engine ends up being wider than a normal 2.0, but you can still adjust the valves with it in the car.

What will you guys do for heads? Anything special to get 8000 RPM? Does the Hamilton Engineering AX car rev that high? Wow had no idea those motors were reving so high?

Is the current motor in the Hamilton car only a 2.0? If it is its damn impressive. It runs just as fast as the Raby 2.4 in our area and has way more top end. Its clear that the extra stroke is far better approach. That motor has great torque from what I have seen.

My six is a stroker as well and now that I have figured out exhaust issue just last month it makes great low end power. Hey you notice that my car is a little faster lately?

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Jul 3 2008, 02:56 PM

[Chris Hamilton]

What will you guys do for heads? Anything special to get 8000 RPM? Does the Hamilton Engineering AX car rev that high? Wow had no idea those motors were reving so high?

Is the current motor in the Hamilton car only a 2.0? If it is its damn impressive. It runs just as fast as the Raby 2.4 in our area and has way more top end. Its clear that the extra stroke is far better approach. That motor has great torque from what I have seen.

My six is a stroker as well and now that I have figured out exhaust issue just last month it makes great low end power. Hey you notice that my car is a little faster lately?

We're using custom ported 1.8 heads ( no welding or anything crazy ), a stock 2.0 camshaft, Nology ignition system. The rods are longer, but the stroke is still the same as the stock 2.0 ( I think the displacement comes out to 1971cc or so ). The highest we've taken it was once at Santa Rosa where the finish was that sort of off-camber turn right by the exit to the track, and andrew couldn't find any decent place to shift. We have a mallory tach with rev-limiter, and we ended up turning it up to about 8,250.

If you wanna feel it, come ride with me at the next autocross.

Did notice you've been closer to us lately. We thought it must have been our old tires ( we bought them to run the parade 07 ). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[grantsfo]

What will you guys do for heads? Anything special to get 8000 RPM? Does the Hamilton Engineering AX car rev that high? Wow had no idea those motors were reving so high?

Is the current motor in the Hamilton car only a 2.0? If it is its damn impressive. It runs just as fast as the Raby 2.4 in our area and has way more top end. Its clear that the extra stroke is far better approach. That motor has great torque from what I have seen.

My six is a stroker as well and now that I have figured out exhaust issue just last month it makes great low end power. Hey you notice that my car is a little faster lately?

We're using custom ported 1.8 heads ( no welding or anything crazy ), a stock 2.0 camshaft, Nology ignition system. The rods are longer, but the stroke is still the same as the stock 2.0 ( I think the displacement comes out to 1971cc or so ). The highest we've taken it was once at Santa Rosa where the finish was that sort of off-camber turn right by the exit to the track, and andrew couldn't find any decent place to shift. We have a mallory tach with rev-limiter, and we ended up turning it up to about 8,250.

If you wanna feel it, come ride with me at the next autocross.

Did notice you've been closer to us lately. We thought it must have been our old tires ( we bought them to run the parade 07 ). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That would be cool! I would defintely like to see what the motor feels like in the car!

Does your dad build motors for general public? He really has done an outstanding job with current motor in the Hamilton Engineering car. That motor pulls every bit as hard as that big Massive Raby powered car and has much much better top end. You guys have stomped some very high powered competition with those rabbit rod motors including the mongo 2.4 Raby motor car every event for the past two seasons. The Hamilton motors seem to be very tough as well. During the May AX Andrew was bumping off rev limiter on a couple sections every run. I'm just saying you guys should be supplying some of the hard core AX public with an option other than Raby motors. I think you guys are more realistic and certainly more humble.

I was on old tires from last year too! I like that we 914 guys are putting the hurt on everyone with old tires! I have never bought new tires and wont buy new tires until the Shoot out. I buy cheap used tires from people like Randal who had two year old tires and guy back East who had a set of take offs from last year for $80 each. I'm still learning Cantis as well I have only done 5 events on these tires so far.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Jul 3 2008, 09:44 PM

[Chris Hamilton]

That would be cool! I would defintely like to see what the motor feels like in the car!

Does your dad build motors for general public? He really has done an outstanding job with current motor in the Hamilton Engineering car. That motor pulls every bit as hard as that big Massive Raby powered car and has much much better top end. You guys have stomped some very high powered competition with those rabbit rod motors including the mongo 2.4 Raby motor car every event for the past two seasons. The Hamilton motors seem to be very tough as well. During the May AX Andrew was bumping off rev limiter on a couple sections every run. I'm just saying you guys should be supplying some of the hard core AX public with an option other than Raby motors. I think you guys are more realistic and certainly more humble.

I was on old tires from last year too! I like that we 914 guys are putting the hurt on everyone with old tires! I have never bought new tires and wont buy new tires until the Shoot out. I buy cheap used tires from people like Randal who had two year old tires and guy back East who had a set of take offs from last year for $80 each. I'm still learning Cantis as well I have only done 5 events on these tires so far.

Well, he's supposed to be retired, but he just can't seem to kick the habit!

You should talk to him about the car at the next autocross. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I can also give you his phone number if you want to talk to him and maybe come by and check out some engines he's building right now.


edit: I also think that we need to give a lot of credit to Andrew for being a spectacular driver, and making our stuff look so good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)