vw vr6 conversion, anyone ever done it? Options

[trent1542]

possible? who's done it? Are the VW VR6's aircooled or watercooled?
???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[stewteral]

possible? who's done it? Are the VW VR6's aircooled or watercooled?
???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Hi Trent,

I have a V8 conversion car that I've been developing for 7 years into a decent track car, so here's my 2 cents:

-ANY conversion will be a HELL of a lot of work, so I just can't see doing it for only 200 - 250 HP. By turbo'ing a 2.0 liter 411 motor would would probably match that performance, for as long as it lasted.

-A turbo'd Subie makes sense: the power is there AND it is a LOW CG motor. I've learned that the 914 was DESIGNED around a LOW CG drive train to limit roll in corners. With any body roll, the rear suspension makes BIG changes in toe-in on the loaded & unloaded wheels (see my posting on the paddock forum on settings for V8 conversions).

-I went with a 383 Chevy to get a 5lbs/HP goal. It goes like HELL, parts are CHEAP and readily available. Summit Racing is where I live. The extra weight has made it very difficult to get to handle well as a track car, but I finally have the solution. If you are just looking for a Cheap, QUICK daily driver, it's the way to go. If you are content with "only" 300 - 350 HP and shift carefully, the 901 trans with take it and are cheap to replace/repair. For my power I HAD to go to a Turbo 930 trans.....and then the $$ start to add up.

-If you decide to go Chevy, I cannot recommend strongly enough to AVOID Renegade: They have NO engineering intelligence, they don't make any of their own parts and there fabricated stuff is junk: their engine support bar BOWS in the middle! Kennedy Engineering, Lancaster, CA are THE PROS when it comes to conversion parts: adapter plate, clutch & clutch disc (when I stopped in, they spent an HOUR talking about clutches, etc:GREAT PEOPLE). I recommend not using the mechanical remote water pump: I use the Meziere electric remote pump that gives you max flow while idling in traffic rather than the slow mechanical. The pricing is about the same for each. For the accessory parts, Desert Hybrids in AZ (http://home.earthlink.net/~adbuch/) is run/owned by an engineer and great guy who makes all his own parts of good quality. He is also willing to spend time with you to help. For a radiator, the Summit Alu Camaro radiator 9" x 31" can't be beat at $180. It "JUST" fits between the headlight boxes. Exhausting out the fenderwells works for modest power applications, but if you live in a hot climate, for the BEST cooling, venting out the top of the hood is THE ANSWER (see my post at Paddock)

-Lastly, expect the project to take a lot of TIME to build up, so be sure you are COMMITTED to take it to the end. I took my car down to the bare chassis, welded in a full rollcage, did body & paint and all the fabrication: it took 26 months. To do a simple "Kit install" should be 6 months to a year, depending on how much you have to do. If you are confident mechanic with lots of tools, especially a wire-feed welder, you will enjoy the project. If you detail questions, I'd be glad to share what I experienced and leave it to you on the decisions.

I hope this helps!
Terry

[Andyrew]

possible? who's done it? Are the VW VR6's aircooled or watercooled?
???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Hi Trent,

I have a V8 conversion car that I've been developing for 7 years into a decent track car, so here's my 2 cents:

-ANY conversion will be a HELL of a lot of work, so I just can't see doing it for only 200 - 250 HP. By turbo'ing a 2.0 liter 411 motor would would probably match that performance, for as long as it lasted.

-A turbo'd Subie makes sense: the power is there AND it is a LOW CG motor. I've learned that the 914 was DESIGNED around a LOW CG drive train to limit roll in corners. With any body roll, the rear suspension makes BIG changes in toe-in on the loaded & unloaded wheels (see my posting on the paddock forum on settings for V8 conversions).

-I went with a 383 Chevy to get a 5lbs/HP goal. It goes like HELL, parts are CHEAP and readily available. Summit Racing is where I live. The extra weight has made it very difficult to get to handle well as a track car, but I finally have the solution. If you are just looking for a Cheap, QUICK daily driver, it's the way to go. If you are content with "only" 300 - 350 HP and shift carefully, the 901 trans with take it and are cheap to replace/repair. For my power I HAD to go to a Turbo 930 trans.....and then the $$ start to add up.

-If you decide to go Chevy, I cannot recommend strongly enough to AVOID Renegade: They have NO engineering intelligence, they don't make any of their own parts and there fabricated stuff is junk: their engine support bar BOWS in the middle! Kennedy Engineering, Lancaster, CA are THE PROS when it comes to conversion parts: adapter plate, clutch & clutch disc (when I stopped in, they spent an HOUR talking about clutches, etc:GREAT PEOPLE). I recommend not using the mechanical remote water pump: I use the Meziere electric remote pump that gives you max flow while idling in traffic rather than the slow mechanical. The pricing is about the same for each. For the accessory parts, Desert Hybrids in AZ (http://home.earthlink.net/~adbuch/) is run/owned by an engineer and great guy who makes all his own parts of good quality. He is also willing to spend time with you to help. For a radiator, the Summit Alu Camaro radiator 9" x 31" can't be beat at $180. It "JUST" fits between the headlight boxes. Exhausting out the fenderwells works for modest power applications, but if you live in a hot climate, for the BEST cooling, venting out the top of the hood is THE ANSWER (see my post at Paddock)

-Lastly, expect the project to take a lot of TIME to build up, so be sure you are COMMITTED to take it to the end. I took my car down to the bare chassis, welded in a full rollcage, did body & paint and all the fabrication: it took 26 months. To do a simple "Kit install" should be 6 months to a year, depending on how much you have to do. If you are confident mechanic with lots of tools, especially a wire-feed welder, you will enjoy the project. If you detail questions, I'd be glad to share what I experienced and leave it to you on the decisions.

I hope this helps!
Terry

Terry,

I have to contradict that statement about not seeing the effort for 200-250hp. I think a 200-250HP is a great daily driver 914... Most of the modern 6 conversions are in that range and are great hill climbers! In reality you cant use much above 300HP on the streets in the twisty's as well and you have a big concern of breaking things every time you drive!

This is the one reason why im selling my v8 conversion and going with a 2.8V6 Audi engine.. 200-250hp feels really good in a 914. Very quick, yet predictable and controlable. Also with a VW/Audi gearbox its very strong and shifts so much better than the 901 gearbox.


To be honest reliability is the main reason for me to convert to a modern Audi engine/trani.

Combine this with the easy ability to retrofit A/C and other modern technology's with a modern engine, and you just have a great overall package for a car you can get in and drive whenever you want!

[stewteral]

possible? who's done it? Are the VW VR6's aircooled or watercooled?
???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Hi Trent,

I have a V8 conversion car that I've been developing for 7 years into a decent track car, so here's my 2 cents:

-ANY conversion will be a HELL of a lot of work, so I just can't see doing it for only 200 - 250 HP. By turbo'ing a 2.0 liter 411 motor would would probably match that performance, for as long as it lasted.

-A turbo'd Subie makes sense: the power is there AND it is a LOW CG motor. I've learned that the 914 was DESIGNED around a LOW CG drive train to limit roll in corners. With any body roll, the rear suspension makes BIG changes in toe-in on the loaded & unloaded wheels (see my posting on the paddock forum on settings for V8 conversions).

-I went with a 383 Chevy to get a 5lbs/HP goal. It goes like HELL, parts are CHEAP and readily available. Summit Racing is where I live. The extra weight has made it very difficult to get to handle well as a track car, but I finally have the solution. If you are just looking for a Cheap, QUICK daily driver, it's the way to go. If you are content with "only" 300 - 350 HP and shift carefully, the 901 trans with take it and are cheap to replace/repair. For my power I HAD to go to a Turbo 930 trans.....and then the $$ start to add up.

-If you decide to go Chevy, I cannot recommend strongly enough to AVOID Renegade: They have NO engineering intelligence, they don't make any of their own parts and there fabricated stuff is junk: their engine support bar BOWS in the middle! Kennedy Engineering, Lancaster, CA are THE PROS when it comes to conversion parts: adapter plate, clutch & clutch disc (when I stopped in, they spent an HOUR talking about clutches, etc:GREAT PEOPLE). I recommend not using the mechanical remote water pump: I use the Meziere electric remote pump that gives you max flow while idling in traffic rather than the slow mechanical. The pricing is about the same for each. For the accessory parts, Desert Hybrids in AZ (http://home.earthlink.net/~adbuch/) is run/owned by an engineer and great guy who makes all his own parts of good quality. He is also willing to spend time with you to help. For a radiator, the Summit Alu Camaro radiator 9" x 31" can't be beat at $180. It "JUST" fits between the headlight boxes. Exhausting out the fenderwells works for modest power applications, but if you live in a hot climate, for the BEST cooling, venting out the top of the hood is THE ANSWER (see my post at Paddock)

-Lastly, expect the project to take a lot of TIME to build up, so be sure you are COMMITTED to take it to the end. I took my car down to the bare chassis, welded in a full rollcage, did body & paint and all the fabrication: it took 26 months. To do a simple "Kit install" should be 6 months to a year, depending on how much you have to do. If you are confident mechanic with lots of tools, especially a wire-feed welder, you will enjoy the project. If you detail questions, I'd be glad to share what I experienced and leave it to you on the decisions.

I hope this helps!
Terry

Terry,

I have to contradict that statement about not seeing the effort for 200-250hp. I think a 200-250HP is a great daily driver 914... Most of the modern 6 conversions are in that range and are great hill climbers! In reality you cant use much above 300HP on the streets in the twisty's as well and you have a big concern of breaking things every time you drive!

This is the one reason why im selling my v8 conversion and going with a 2.8V6 Audi engine.. 200-250hp feels really good in a 914. Very quick, yet predictable and controlable. Also with a VW/Audi gearbox its very strong and shifts so much better than the 901 gearbox.


To be honest reliability is the main reason for me to convert to a modern Audi engine/trani.

Combine this with the easy ability to retrofit A/C and other modern technology's with a modern engine, and you just have a great overall package for a car you can get in and drive whenever you want!

Hey Andyrew,

Well obviously, we have a difference in "personal preference." I like cars that really move, and you like "modern technology", moderate performance and A/C.

As far as not being able to use 300 HP, all I can do is tell you what Elliot Forbes Robinson told me after I said "you just can't take that corner flat-out." He smiled and responded "well maybe YOU can't take that corner flat-out....." I think 300 HP in a 914 is just when it gets INTERESTING. My car has 500 HP and it REALLY gets your attention! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the heart of our different view is that I'm a long time racer (over 30 years) and you are not. While I tend to focus on the challenge of a driver in a good chassis driving on the limits, going for the perfect lap; you tend to think of the practical terms of daily driving and comfort. My car is driven mostly on-track, while your car will be in constant street use. Neither view is right or wrong, just different view points.

I'd love to see photos of your conversion and hope you Love what you have created. I know I sure get a big kick out my toy.

Best,
Terry

[Andyrew]

possible? who's done it? Are the VW VR6's aircooled or watercooled?
???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Hi Trent,

I have a V8 conversion car that I've been developing for 7 years into a decent track car, so here's my 2 cents:

-ANY conversion will be a HELL of a lot of work, so I just can't see doing it for only 200 - 250 HP. By turbo'ing a 2.0 liter 411 motor would would probably match that performance, for as long as it lasted.

-A turbo'd Subie makes sense: the power is there AND it is a LOW CG motor. I've learned that the 914 was DESIGNED around a LOW CG drive train to limit roll in corners. With any body roll, the rear suspension makes BIG changes in toe-in on the loaded & unloaded wheels (see my posting on the paddock forum on settings for V8 conversions).

-I went with a 383 Chevy to get a 5lbs/HP goal. It goes like HELL, parts are CHEAP and readily available. Summit Racing is where I live. The extra weight has made it very difficult to get to handle well as a track car, but I finally have the solution. If you are just looking for a Cheap, QUICK daily driver, it's the way to go. If you are content with "only" 300 - 350 HP and shift carefully, the 901 trans with take it and are cheap to replace/repair. For my power I HAD to go to a Turbo 930 trans.....and then the $$ start to add up.

-If you decide to go Chevy, I cannot recommend strongly enough to AVOID Renegade: They have NO engineering intelligence, they don't make any of their own parts and there fabricated stuff is junk: their engine support bar BOWS in the middle! Kennedy Engineering, Lancaster, CA are THE PROS when it comes to conversion parts: adapter plate, clutch & clutch disc (when I stopped in, they spent an HOUR talking about clutches, etc:GREAT PEOPLE). I recommend not using the mechanical remote water pump: I use the Meziere electric remote pump that gives you max flow while idling in traffic rather than the slow mechanical. The pricing is about the same for each. For the accessory parts, Desert Hybrids in AZ (http://home.earthlink.net/~adbuch/) is run/owned by an engineer and great guy who makes all his own parts of good quality. He is also willing to spend time with you to help. For a radiator, the Summit Alu Camaro radiator 9" x 31" can't be beat at $180. It "JUST" fits between the headlight boxes. Exhausting out the fenderwells works for modest power applications, but if you live in a hot climate, for the BEST cooling, venting out the top of the hood is THE ANSWER (see my post at Paddock)

-Lastly, expect the project to take a lot of TIME to build up, so be sure you are COMMITTED to take it to the end. I took my car down to the bare chassis, welded in a full rollcage, did body & paint and all the fabrication: it took 26 months. To do a simple "Kit install" should be 6 months to a year, depending on how much you have to do. If you are confident mechanic with lots of tools, especially a wire-feed welder, you will enjoy the project. If you detail questions, I'd be glad to share what I experienced and leave it to you on the decisions.

I hope this helps!
Terry

Terry,

I have to contradict that statement about not seeing the effort for 200-250hp. I think a 200-250HP is a great daily driver 914... Most of the modern 6 conversions are in that range and are great hill climbers! In reality you cant use much above 300HP on the streets in the twisty's as well and you have a big concern of breaking things every time you drive!

This is the one reason why im selling my v8 conversion and going with a 2.8V6 Audi engine.. 200-250hp feels really good in a 914. Very quick, yet predictable and controlable. Also with a VW/Audi gearbox its very strong and shifts so much better than the 901 gearbox.


To be honest reliability is the main reason for me to convert to a modern Audi engine/trani.

Combine this with the easy ability to retrofit A/C and other modern technology's with a modern engine, and you just have a great overall package for a car you can get in and drive whenever you want!

Hey Andyrew,

Well obviously, we have a difference in "personal preference." I like cars that really move, and you like "modern technology", moderate performance and A/C.

As far as not being able to use 300 HP, all I can do is tell you what Elliot Forbes Robinson told me after I said "you just can't take that corner flat-out." He smiled and responded "well maybe YOU can't take that corner flat-out....." I think 300 HP in a 914 is just when it gets INTERESTING. My car has 500 HP and it REALLY gets your attention! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the heart of our different view is that I'm a long time racer (over 30 years) and you are not. While I tend to focus on the challenge of a driver in a good chassis driving on the limits, going for the perfect lap; you tend to think of the practical terms of daily driving and comfort. My car is driven mostly on-track, while your car will be in constant street use. Neither view is right or wrong, just different view points.

I'd love to see photos of your conversion and hope you Love what you have created. I know I sure get a big kick out my toy.

Best,
Terry

Terry,

To be honest, my car was very close to yours, and minus the wings and some of your more dedicated track features (PS, I love you car by the way, We spoke in breif WCC 2005) it was getting to be really close. However I wanted a dedicated autox car, vs track car, and after running my car for a while, then switching over to my A4 quattro, I was forced into the fact that with less time and money, my A4 would be MUCH faster than the 914. As of right now with similar tires, the A4 would probably be 2 seconds faster than the 914 on a 50 second lap. Its ~ 4 seconds faster than my dads track prepped 951...

So I have accepted the fact that the Audi is a better track car, which is what its going to be dedicated to. The 914's chassis just isnt good enough, nor is the power delivery good enough to justify spending the countless 10's of thousands into getting competitive. On the other hand, couple the light weight body, and a properly modified suspension and braking setup with a reliable, smooth, and fun powertrain; and you have an awesome car that you CAN take to the track, autox and have fun, or just drive to work.

I agree our priorities are different, and in my old age ; ) , they have changed.