Higher Ethanol (15%) BAD News for Pre-97 cars, Sign the Petition |
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Higher Ethanol (15%) BAD News for Pre-97 cars, Sign the Petition |
RickS |
Feb 6 2011, 10:50 PM
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#1
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 17-April 06 From: 'False City', WA Member No.: 5,880 Region Association: None |
A cross post from the land of the penguins. Read the top and find the petition link at the bottom of the first page of the thread. Scary stuff - Suby converterers might be in a good place.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...s-91-newer.html Full text of that post: QUOTE Older engines (read "ours") may have serious problems. "May", could read "likely", but since I am not an expert. Read on and chime in on what we can do if needed: Excerpted from the New York Times January 21, 2011: WASHINGTON — The Environmental Protection Agency said on Friday that cars and light trucks from the 2001 model year onward can safely use a blend of 15 percent ethanol mixed with gasoline, up from the 10 percent standard now in effect in much of the country. The decision expands the pool of vehicles that could use such a fuel to about 62 percent of the total on the roads. But the practical impact of the announcement on the fuel blend, known as E15, was not clear. An announcement in October that newer cars, from the 2007 model year and later, could use the blend has so far had little impact on retailers or drivers. A new fuel requires multiple approvals from many agencies. And retailers are typically not set up to offer an additional grade of gasoline at their pumps: if they wanted to sell E15, they would have to stop selling something else. The ethanol industry is facing a problem selling its product because overall gasoline sales are down even while ethanol production is up. In addition, while many cars have been manufactured that can run on an 85 percent ethanol blend, known as E85, very few gasoline retailers outside the Midwest actually sell the fuel. Auto makers had expressed concern that the E15 blend could harm cars’ seals, pumps and other fuel system components. But on Friday, Lisa P. Jackson, the E.P.A. administrator, said the agency’s testing had found otherwise. “Recently completed testing and data analysis show that E15 does not harm emissions control equipment in newer cars and light trucks,” she said in a statement. “Wherever sound science and the law support steps to allow more home-grown fuels in America’s vehicles, this administration takes those steps.” The ethanol industry cheered the announcement. Growth Energy, a trade group that had petitioned the E.P.A. in 2009 to raise the standard blend to 15 percent ethanol from 10 percent, said that if accomplished, the change “could help create as many as 136,000 new jobs in the United States.” Encouraging the use of corn-based ethanol is one of the few federal auto policies that has had a substantial impact on reducing oil imports. The government is still studying the ability of older cars to withstand a 15 percent ethanol blend. The E.P.A. has not said when it expects to announce a ruling on older vehicles. Some gasoline-powered equipment, like marine outboard motors, chain saws and leaf blowers, is never expected to qualify, and E15 in those engines would create safety hazards, the equipment makers say. Full text: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/business...anol&st=cse I understand cars with carbs may have additional difficulties |
Madswede |
Feb 7 2011, 02:20 PM
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#2
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Flat Out Driver Group: Members Posts: 853 Joined: 13-September 06 From: Rio Rancho NM Member No.: 6,831 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Here's a summary from what I've gathered (I use EtOH for ethanol out of habit):
- EtOH absorbs water from the air readily. This can be a big problem for smaller carburetor-equipped motors will likely have issues with gumming up using higher EtOH-enhanced fuels, particularly if you're not in the super-dry deserts of the country. It's also pretty bad for small 2-stroke motors (it apparently can separate the oil from the oil-fuel mix as well as introduce water) - Most of the issues with respect to the solvent properties of EtOH affecting gas tank lining materials, valves, etc. could be addressed by improved or upgraded parts. Expensive, but one should acknowledge this can be done. - Similar to previous point, cars could be converted to FI instead of carburetors, but that means no more Old School. Again, just acknowledging things. - EtOH has a lower energy density than most other compounds in gasoline, making it simply less-efficient when compared to "pure" gasoline. So you gotta burn more of it to go the same distance you would with gasoline. - EtOH does not - repeat not - stop so-called greenhouse gas emissions, particularly carbon dioxide. In fact, until the infrastructure gets better, EtOH-production from corn (mostly what we have in the US) uses quite a lot of energy to farm corn and make EtOH. This farming can drive up food costs. It is also currently subsidized, making the true economic studies inherently biased and speculative. - EtOH does show promise, according to many economists and energy analysts. Like any major economic shift, it's the long run that should be looked at, not the immediate returns. Canada and US gov'ts seem to be banking on this. Compared to continuing blindly down a path of going until there just ain't no more gasoline, perhaps EtOH is the answer, if not part of the answer. - EtOH in the US (from corn) is relatively inefficient as far as energy-in vs. product-out (see subsidizing above). A big reason is that the starch in corn has to be converted to sugars before it can be fermented to EtOH (ask any home brewer about that). This costs energy and fuel in and of itself. The process also produces lots of cellulosic waste (corn cobs, unfermented material, etc). There are some concepts to convert that left over stuff into EtOH using genetically engineered bugs of some kind (can't remember exactly), and that technology is coming on line soon. EtOH from sugar cane is a lot easier and uses less energy, which is why Brazil can run so much EtOH vehicles. - EtOH actually increases ground-level ozone pollution compared to gasoline due to higher aldehyde (mostly acetaldehyde) emissions which react with sunlight to eventually break down into ozone (which is needed some miles up in the atmosphere, but not so much down here on the ground). These aldehydes could be broken down by catalysis like other (NOx mostly) currently are in vehicle's catalytic converters, but again - more cost, and uncertain performance effects. - By the way, the more EtOH in gasoline, the higher its relative stability under compression - or the higher octane rating it will have. So highly-EtOH enhanced fuel has a rather high octane rating - good for turbos. Still, those motors will go right through it faster'n hell. Bottom line, EtOH production (and at least for many of us with older cars) its use as a motor fuel has lots of problems ... one should compare them to the main problem it's production is meant to solve (the economic risk of international oil dependency) and make up their own mind. |
SirAndy |
Feb 7 2011, 02:30 PM
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#3
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,669 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
... Bottom line ... All that info without any name calling ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) |
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