Help. Got an alignment today-Numbers seem funny, Plus a new front end vibration Options

[ellisor3]

I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.

Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar

Here are the before and after numbers:

Before/After


Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55

FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32

REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33

Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12

In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.

On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??

[Jeff Hail]

I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.

Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar

Here are the before and after numbers:

Before/After


Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55

FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32

REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33

Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12

In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.

On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??

The tires you have have are low profile and wide with a very stiff sidewall. This will magnify any split measurements from side to side. Also your tires will tend to resist side to side forces more due to road surface friction.

Rule of thumb with alignment measurements in a perfect world.

1) Camber split side to side should not exceed 1/4 degree.
2) Caster split side to side should not exceed 1/2 degree.

Front

Caster is low on the right front which most likely is the cause of the right drift.
Get the caster as even as possible side to side. 1/2 side to side your are going to feel it with those wide tires and it will pull.

Camber
Again with wide tires they dont give in the side wall like an old 75 or 80 series tires.
Get the camber equal side to side. Because you are running negative camber your tires are rolling on the inside shoulder in a straight line. This could also be the source of the vibration until the wear pattern sets in.

If the tires are old and have worn to an old alignment setting well the old is reflecting in the new.

The Toe setting was ok.

Rear
The differences in camber are high which is going to make the car push to the right in the rear (left rear camber higher than the right) Get the right rear camber higher as close to the left side as possible.

Your guy took the shims out of the rear in attempt to set the toe??? Stop right there and find a competent alignment shop. Should have left 2 shims in and the camber and would be fine.

The left rear toe could have been better. Again try to get as close to the opposite side as possible. The right rear tire is steering the rear end ever so slightly to the left. The left toe being almost zero cannot resist the right side opposing forces. (rear going left and front going right) should show up as steering wheel creep of constant correction to keep the car going straight on a flat level road.

The thrust angle was good on the final.

If you can post the SAI readings (if taken) they can be used to diagnose whether any suspension parts or structure (tower) has any damage, bent or mis-alignment.

In the real world side to side measurements will never be the same but they should be as close as possible with as little split difference for a street car with low profile wide tires.

I'd take a measurement of the right front tower to see if its in. Usually we cant get enough camber out of the front end. An SAI reading will diagnose a bent spindle or strut.

Race car and street car alignments will be very different. If you are using the car mostly for street high camber angles arent required and with those tires they will last longer.

Based on the before and after readings nothing really pops out to me that you have any real issues. The adjustment range is there just need to spend the time to get them closer.

Im sure you meant -0.5 on front camber in your opener not caster. Ever ride a bicycle backwards.

[ellisor3]

I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.

Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar

Here are the before and after numbers:

Before/After


Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55

FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32

REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33

Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12

In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.

On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??

The tires you have have are low profile and wide with a very stiff sidewall. This will magnify any split measurements from side to side. Also your tires will tend to resist side to side forces more due to road surface friction.

Rule of thumb with alignment measurements in a perfect world.

1) Camber split side to side should not exceed 1/4 degree.
2) Caster split side to side should not exceed 1/2 degree.

Front

Caster is low on the right front which most likely is the cause of the right drift.
Get the caster as even as possible side to side. 1/2 side to side your are going to feel it with those wide tires and it will pull.

Camber
Again with wide tires they dont give in the side wall like an old 75 or 80 series tires.
Get the camber equal side to side. Because you are running negative camber your tires are rolling on the inside shoulder in a straight line. This could also be the source of the vibration until the wear pattern sets in.

If the tires are old and have worn to an old alignment setting well the old is reflecting in the new.

The Toe setting was ok.

Rear
The differences in camber are high which is going to make the car push to the right in the rear (left rear camber higher than the right) Get the right rear camber higher as close to the left side as possible.

Your guy took the shims out of the rear in attempt to set the toe??? Stop right there and find a competent alignment shop. Should have left 2 shims in and the camber and would be fine.

The left rear toe could have been better. Again try to get as close to the opposite side as possible. The right rear tire is steering the rear end ever so slightly to the left. The left toe being almost zero cannot resist the right side opposing forces. (rear going left and front going right) should show up as steering wheel creep of constant correction to keep the car going straight on a flat level road.

The thrust angle was good on the final.

If you can post the SAI readings (if taken) they can be used to diagnose whether any suspension parts or structure (tower) has any damage, bent or mis-alignment.

In the real world side to side measurements will never be the same but they should be as close as possible with as little split difference for a street car with low profile wide tires.

I'd take a measurement of the right front tower to see if its in. Usually we cant get enough camber out of the front end. An SAI reading will diagnose a bent spindle or strut.

Race car and street car alignments will be very different. If you are using the car mostly for street high camber angles arent required and with those tires they will last longer.

Based on the before and after readings nothing really pops out to me that you have any real issues. The adjustment range is there just need to spend the time to get them closer.

Im sure you meant -0.5 on front camber in your opener not caster. Ever ride a bicycle backwards.

Here are the SAI numbers:

Before/After

Left 12.19/11.97
Right 11.74/24.04

Included Angle
Left 10.86/10.97
Right 10.83/22.84

I do think this car was hit from the back at some point but it actualy drove pretty well even before the alignment although it seemed to hunt in straight lines.

[Jeff Hail]

I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.

Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar

Here are the before and after numbers:

Before/After


Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55

FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32

REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33

Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12

In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.

On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??

The tires you have have are low profile and wide with a very stiff sidewall. This will magnify any split measurements from side to side. Also your tires will tend to resist side to side forces more due to road surface friction.

Rule of thumb with alignment measurements in a perfect world.

1) Camber split side to side should not exceed 1/4 degree.
2) Caster split side to side should not exceed 1/2 degree.

Front

Caster is low on the right front which most likely is the cause of the right drift.
Get the caster as even as possible side to side. 1/2 side to side your are going to feel it with those wide tires and it will pull.

Camber
Again with wide tires they dont give in the side wall like an old 75 or 80 series tires.
Get the camber equal side to side. Because you are running negative camber your tires are rolling on the inside shoulder in a straight line. This could also be the source of the vibration until the wear pattern sets in.

If the tires are old and have worn to an old alignment setting well the old is reflecting in the new.

The Toe setting was ok.

Rear
The differences in camber are high which is going to make the car push to the right in the rear (left rear camber higher than the right) Get the right rear camber higher as close to the left side as possible.

Your guy took the shims out of the rear in attempt to set the toe??? Stop right there and find a competent alignment shop. Should have left 2 shims in and the camber and would be fine.

The left rear toe could have been better. Again try to get as close to the opposite side as possible. The right rear tire is steering the rear end ever so slightly to the left. The left toe being almost zero cannot resist the right side opposing forces. (rear going left and front going right) should show up as steering wheel creep of constant correction to keep the car going straight on a flat level road.

The thrust angle was good on the final.

If you can post the SAI readings (if taken) they can be used to diagnose whether any suspension parts or structure (tower) has any damage, bent or mis-alignment.

In the real world side to side measurements will never be the same but they should be as close as possible with as little split difference for a street car with low profile wide tires.

I'd take a measurement of the right front tower to see if its in. Usually we cant get enough camber out of the front end. An SAI reading will diagnose a bent spindle or strut.

Race car and street car alignments will be very different. If you are using the car mostly for street high camber angles arent required and with those tires they will last longer.

Based on the before and after readings nothing really pops out to me that you have any real issues. The adjustment range is there just need to spend the time to get them closer.

Im sure you meant -0.5 on front camber in your opener not caster. Ever ride a bicycle backwards.

Here are the SAI numbers:

Before/After

Left 12.19/11.97
Right 11.74/24.04

Included Angle
Left 10.86/10.97
Right 10.83/22.84

I do think this car was hit from the back at some point but it actualy drove pretty well even before the alignment although it seemed to hunt in straight lines.

And here is the flowchart