Roll Bar in a street car discussion Options

[Scott S]

Hi All. I posted this over on Pelican, thought it might be relevant here too.

I know there have been many discussions on the safety putting a roll bar/cage in a street driven car. I am not a racer, so it really didn't pertain to me at all. However, yesterday I saw first hand the injuries that can occur.

16 year old girl driving her dads Miata with him in the passenger seat. There is speculation that she was driving on her permit, practicing for her drivers license. She was driving at a slow speed, simply making a right hand turn on to a side street. She clipped the curb - something we all have done. Curb was tall enough that it shook the car pretty good (again, speculation, but knowing the corner I would guess a wheel would have been bent and the car knocked out of alignment ).

Both are in the hospital with concussions, one of them needed several stiches from injuries caused by their heads impacting the roll bar.

I don't know if the dad autocrossed the car or what, or if the bar was just for looks. I do know the car had stock seat belts.

Scary stuff.

[SirAndy]

Proper padding and non-retractable seat belts are a must for a street car with a cage.
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[jasons]

Proper padding and non-retractable seat belts are a must for a street car with a cage.
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I suppose you shouldn't be using a helmet as rollbar protection? It doesn't make much sense to me that you would use one safety device to protect yourself from another safety device.

[SirAndy]

Proper padding and non-retractable seat belts are a must for a street car with a cage.
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I suppose you shouldn't be using a helmet as rollbar protection? It doesn't make much sense to me that you would use one safety device to protect yourself from another safety device.

Wut?

With proper padding, a rollbar is not more dangerous than any other hard object in a car made of, wait for it, mostly metal!

Take any car with a fixed roof, remove the padding/plastic/cover from the frame above the door and what do you see? Metal ...

The rollbar in my 914 is no closer to my head than the door frame in my 2002 Jetta. Or 2012 Tiguan. Plenty of places to hit with my head in those cars.

And i don't see anyone here driving around with a helmet in their daily driver. Well, except Larmo maybe ...
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[DBCooper]

The rollbar in my 914 is no closer to my head than the door frame in my 2002 Jetta. Or 2012 Tiguan. Plenty of places to hit with my head in those cars.

You sure about that? When you put a rollbar or cage into any car by definition it's inside the existing sheet metal, meaning you've reduced the clearance inside the sides and below the roof, in all directions closer to your head. Comparing Jettas to 914's is apples and oranges, the only correct comparison is Jetta with roll bar and Jetta without, or 914 with and without. If your head is closer to something rigid there's more likelihood first that it will be hit in an impact, and then that the impact be of more force. Same car, less clearance, means more risk and more damage.

[SirAndy]

You sure about that?

Yes, i am. Last time i checked, my 914 didn't have any metal above the door from the factory, so no, it's not apples and oranges.
The cage adds metal where a sedan already has metal.
Which makes this a valid comparison.

I did in fact compare the head clearance between the cage in my 914 and my other two cars, the Jetta and Tiguan (Yes, i'm weird that way) and they are pretty much the same.
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[DBCooper]

You sure about that?

Yes, i am. Last time i checked, my 914 didn't have any metal above the door from the factory, so no, it's not apples and oranges.
The cage adds metal where a sedan already has metal.
Which makes this a valid comparison.
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Wait, Andy, you say the 914 has no metal above the door from the factory, but you're going to add some there, spaced so it's even closer to your head, and that's going to be as safe as before, when there was none? Sorry, I don't follow.

[stugray]

You sure about that?

Yes, i am. Last time i checked, my 914 didn't have any metal above the door from the factory, so no, it's not apples and oranges.
The cage adds metal where a sedan already has metal.
Which makes this a valid comparison.
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Wait, Andy, you say the 914 has no metal above the door from the factory, but you're going to add some there, spaced so it's even closer to your head, and that's going to be as safe as before, when there was none? Sorry, I don't follow.

He is SAYING that the metal that is NOW in his 914 is NO CLOSER than the METAL in his other cars.
I also have more headroom in my 914 than in ANY of my other cars except my Suburban.

I have a full rollcage in my car that I drive on the street.
It is covered everywhere that my head or arms could make contact with the expensive high density SFI rated foam padding.
Everywhere else it has the less expensive low density foam.
It is difficult to see any piece of my roll structure metal because it is ALL covered.

[DBCooper]

He is SAYING that the metal that is NOW in his 914 is NO CLOSER than the METAL in his other cars.
I also have more headroom in my 914 than in ANY of my other cars except my Suburban.

That's totally irrelevant. The comparison is the change you make to the SAME car when you put in a bar or cage, from before to after. You've just 1) put metal where there was no metal before, and 2) moved the contact point closer to your unprotected head. Both of those things mean that car, whether it's a 914 or a Suburban, is less safe than it was before it got the cage.

I have a full rollcage in my car that I drive on the street.
It is covered everywhere that my head or arms could make contact with the expensive high density SFI rated foam padding.
Everywhere else it has the less expensive low density foam.
It is difficult to see any piece of my roll structure metal because it is ALL covered.

Yeah, but that's a little like me saying "Don't worry, I'm going to hit you in the head with this aluminum baseball bat, but it'll be O.K. because I'll wrap it in high density SFI rated foam padding." Look, it's a free country and you can do whatever you like, but being hit in the head with a baseball bat, wrapped in foam or not, is not going to turn out well. That's a reasonable statement, isn't it?

Sure, it's also possible that the cage may save your life in an accident, but I think statistics (from studies of airbags) all suggest you're far, far more likely to die of head trauma from contacting something inside the cabin than you are from any type of structural collapse. Means the odds are really not in your favor when you put even more rigid metal points of contact into the cabin, especially close to your head, covered with foam or not.

But on the other hand 914's aren't logical or that safe to begin with, and cages are cool, so do what you want.

[stugray]

That's totally irrelevant. The comparison is the change you make to the SAME car when you put in a bar or cage, from before to after. You've just 1) put metal where there was no metal before, and 2) moved the contact point closer to your unprotected head. Both of those things mean that car, whether it's a 914 or a Suburban, is less safe than it was before it got the cage.

It is a moot point because my 914 is "required" to have a full roll cage.

You could also lecture me because I rebuilt my entire brake system myself.
Some on this forum would argue that, that is too dangerous and "leave it to the professionals"

I guess I just like to live on the edge (like driving a car with no ABS or air bags....).