Concours judging for preservation class Options

[22truckie]

Ok. At the risk of offending I have a question. I plan on submitting my unrestored 914 in the preservation class for judging at the national Porsche Parade in Spokane WA next year ( live in the state). I was advised by a very helpful member of this site about how the judging goes. He stated in preservation class judging, if you have factory paint and there are some runs in it , from the factory, that I needed to wet sand those down or I would get deducted. I also noted to him that on my car there were areas where the person at the factory who applied the adhesive for the weather stripping was a little over jelious and got some brush strokes outside the weather stripping. He also stated those would probably need to be removed to prevent point deduction. He then stated he was a concours judge for 914's. Now I have entered major concours shows in preservation classes and placed and never heard anything along those lines. I guess my question is this : If you are not judging on how the car was made exactly from the factory with no alterations or modifications at all, including, and especially, factory imperfections. Then what exactly are you preserving? How the car was made at the factory or how you wish the car looked from the factory. I know I am a new member but I am a long term unrestored, untouched addict who works hard at having people understand how important these treasures really are. Hope this spurs some good posts. Again no offense was ment by this post. I very much appreciate the help the judge was trying to give me

[Tom_T]

Hi again 22truckie,

My apologies if I was unclear &/or misstated some things in my other prior response to you on this matter. And no offense is taken in you're asking on here, because you can get the opinions of more than one judge (past or current), since there will be a range, & possibly some more/longer experienced than I (see mine at the end below). It shows that you are seriously trying to prepare yourself & your 914 for PCA CdE competition.

What folks need to also be aware of, is that the PCA rules are different now, than they were 30+ years ago when "Originality" was more strictly judged (although I believe not on your questioned items above) - & PCA is also quite different from the other car clubs' concours rules, judging, etc.

If you're going to enter a Porsche in a PCA event - whether Parade, Zone or Regional (local), then you need to know the rules & how each level is judged - which will probably vary somewhat between the levels, as well as between individual judges, & between each event of each type.

Because of the large number of members & competing cars in our Zone 8 area of Central & Southern California, Southern Nevada & Arizona, as well as due to a longstanding & well organized Concours program - Zone 8's rules, program offerings, etc. are more stringent as some of the other Zones/Regions (except maybe Zone 1 & a few others). Ergo, our rules & procedures are perhaps a bit closer to those at Parade, but still not exactly the same (e.g: our judging the undercarriage of our Full Concours Division cars, similar to at Parade).

As to your specific questions in your OP, to clarify - well .... no .... I believe that I advised in Unrestored or Preservation Division (or meant to do so), that:

1.) The excess door seal adhesive - whether factory or not - would be a deduction in our Zone 8 Concours (assuming that the interior judge saw it - we don't always see everything in only 5 mins. allotted time for us to judge), & probably at Parade too (see #4 below).

2.) I said that the paint runs on the secondary surfaces like the undersides of doors or jambs were not an issue in Zone 8's Unrestored, & probably would not be at Parade, but again advised you to check (again see #4).

3.) I said that an obvious & noticeable run - even in factory paint - would probably be a deduction in our Zone 8 Unrestored - & that is especially because we allow up to 25% to be not original, & a good paint panel touch-up may not be easily recognizable, so a run could be assumed to be factory or touch-up.

> Note that this should not include things like the original slight "eggshell" finish of the 914 & some early-356, etc. factory paint jobs - although some more anal judges will deduct for even that (& other otherwise non-issues).

By the same token, poor panel or door fitment & gaps are also deductible items - whether "from the factory or not" - as well as any dings in the panels would be, because an owner can use PDR on the back to bring them out &/or touched up.

From what the Parade judges & entrants/winners whom I know personally have told me, these could likewise get deductions at Parade. Two of those were the most recent Monterey Parade Peter Porsche award winner, & one of our top concours Judging/Prep instructors (see about BeeVee on pg. 70 in the Aug. 2015 Panorama).

Remember that - in either local Zone/Region or Parade the individual events - judges, etc. can vary from one to another.

4.) I have not judged at Parade, but know a few others who have done so, as well as entrants at Parade & they have told me some of what goes on) - so I advised you to get the official final 2017 version of the PCR Parade rules just before the event (i.e.: about April/May 2017 for the Seattle 2017 so you get the latest changes for then), but you can get the 2016 rules for advance reference & prep now (see below).

That said, we do also give allowance for issues which would be very expensive for an owner to repair/resolve, & won't deduct for say a several $1000 repair. It is always up to the owner to decide for themselves what to keep, & what to change/resolve or keep as is.

Yes, you can elect not to clean off the adhesive & anything else which a judge or detailer, concours instructor or fellow competitor advises may be an issue, & hope that it isn't deducted for any reason, but because it doesn't at a particular event, doesn't mean that it may not be at another.

If you elect to keep some based on your own principals, then I suggest that you not say anything up front about them - other than to explain the originality of your 914 (911, 912, etc.) - & if you get dinged on one or more, then you can try to politely make a case with the individual judge on why you retained it, & they may not deduct for it - but accept their decision gracefully.

They/we are all volunteers & aren't out to "get" anyone as judges - quite the contrary, we're really mostly there to help with suggestions & improvement of the preparations on your P-cars. As you might guess from my lengthy & perhaps TMI answers, often my fellow judges have to pull me away to go on to the next car, when I'm answering a competitor's questions, pointing out ways to improve, etc.! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Along those lines - I strongly recommend that you not wait until the last minute & just enter your 914 at next year's Parade. Instead, start entering your 914 now - 2016 & into 2017 - in all of the PNW local PCA Zone & Regional events which you possibly can, & explain to the judges that you want their help in getting it ready for 2017 Parade. If they do their Concours like ours in Zone 8, then you will get their judging sheets at the end of each event, which you can then use as a road map for improving preparation each time over the next 12+/- months (you may have to ask for them).

You should also definitely read all of the PCA documentation on Concours judging & preparation at all levels - Parade, Zone 6 & its Regions, as well as some of the more generally applicable preparation & judging info at our Zone 8 site at the link below:

http://www.zone8.org/events/format/concours.php

Note that these Zone 8 docs are not the ones applicable to your Zone 6 specifically, nor directly to Parade. However, other Zones around the US & Canada do/have used some of these documents for their own Concours events (I've personally seen them printed out & on the table at a Peachtree Region Concours in GA in 2010).

You should also see if there are any PCA specific Concours Judging &/or Concours Preparation courses offered in your area in the next year, to help you get up to speed on how things work at Zone 6 & at Parade. Our Zone 8 did a Parade Concours Preparation specific class before the Monterey Parade a couple of years back (in lieu of the Zone class that year), so you could lobby your Zone 6 to offer one too, as the host Zone & PNW as the host Region.

Even if your 914 isn't ready to put on the show grounds yet - go out the the local PCA Concours in your area now, which you can make, & tell them your plans & ask to follow around the judging team for Unrestored, until you can get your 914 out there to get picked over by a range of different judges. Do this at least once as only an observer so you can see & they can explain what they look for, how & why - & if they know you're shooting for the Parade CdE, then they can hopefully also advise you where it will be different there. But beware! - you may just also get roped into volunteering as a runner, timer or judge (after some training) in the process!

You'll have to contact someone at Zone 6 &/or at your "home" Region (PNW?) about getting their Concours rules, Judging & Concours Prep classes, etc. - because I don't see a specific link to that info. at their link below:

http://zone6-pca.org/

The latest Parade Competition Rules (PCR) for Concours from the 2016 Jay Peak Parade can be found here:

https://www.pca.org/resource/2016-parade-co...ion-rules-final

Lastly for you & Mark Epstein's benefit - as I said above & previously - NO I am NOT a Parade judge, & in fact have never competed in a Parade CdE (yet!).

However - & not to brag, but just give you a better understanding of what experience my recommendations come from - I have been judging 1-5+ Concours of our 13-15 yearly in Zone 8 since 2010, have taken our Judging Classes every yer or two since then as required by our Zone 8 rules, & have been ranked as a Senior Judge since 2014 (our 2nd highest level).

I would have already been at our highest Master Judge level in 2015 by our point count & other rules, IF & only if I had my 914 or other car to enter in at least one Concours every 2 years - but alas, the 914 resto is still going slowly, as is our search for a 2008-13 Cayenne S to tow our vintage Avion trailer to shows/rallies (even one simple Wash & Shine Div. entry would qualify me as Master). However, I had helped my uncle prep his `58 'Vette for the big Corvette Club shows back in the 1960s, & have helped others to prep their cars over the years more recently, have taken our PCA Concours Prep classes - so I certainly know how to do it.

So I have the judging experience at "near the top level" for our zone, but am far from the longest standing, most experienced & perhaps not even close to even a great judge - let alone the best! But I have tried to help you understand PCA Concours from what I've learned over that time - both first hand & from others.

However, it will be best for you to continue to seek others on here - & especially those near to you who can come over & see your 914 in person - who have competed in past Parade CdEs to further advise you on the finer points - especially as your prep comes along over the coming months.

Hopefully the above is helpful to you on your quest Sir Knight, just beware the Knights of Nee, The Black Night, Swallow Riddles, Virgin Maidens, & other perils on the way to the Holy Grail! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

If I can kick-start my own "ole gal" 73 914-2.0's resto, then I may just make it to the Seattle Parade in 2017, albeit in the Restored Division.

I hope that some other past Parade judges &/or competitors will chime in here too, in order to both correct anything I have wrong above, &/or to add to it for your benefit.

Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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