Holley EFI, Not just for American 4BBL carb replacements anymore... Options

[horizontally-opposed]

So I am hearing this is a very attractive setup for 4+ cylinder engines, and can be made to work with ITB setups for a flat six, such as PMO's. The 4BBL pricing sure is right, and it's said to be "self tuning" and a dream to work with/on.

Anyone have any experience of this, or know of a Porsche engine running it?

[horizontally-opposed]

When I think about EFI, I like the idea of the "who" behind the system.

Any company can go out, but I put more stock in Holley or something like Andrew pointed out (the MS3 unit). I think about some of the old Haltech or other random systems, and trying to keep a 368 or 486 laptop going to support them.

Only way I'd do the Holley or MS3 is if I could use ITBs made for a flat six (i.e. PMOs). But the prices of these units are getting pretty interesting compared to Motec systems of not long ago—even the "budget" ganged four-cylinder Motec setups where you controlled a flat six like an inline three. Now we are seeing price points that make a conversion from a good, sellable set of 911 Webers pretty interesting.

It isn't a bad time to be a car enthusiast...

[ConeDodger]

When I think about EFI, I like the idea of the "who" behind the system.

Any company can go out, but I put more stock in Holley or something like Andrew pointed out (the MS3 unit). I think about some of the old Haltech or other random systems, and trying to keep a 368 or 486 laptop going to support them.

Only way I'd do the Holley or MS3 is if I could use ITBs made for a flat six (i.e. PMOs). But the prices of these units are getting pretty interesting compared to Motec systems of not long ago—even the "budget" ganged four-cylinder Motec setups where you controlled a flat six like an inline three. Now we are seeing price points that make a conversion from a good, sellable set of 911 Webers pretty interesting.

It isn't a bad time to be a car enthusiast...

Pete, I still recall our conversation a decade or so back at that drive-in in Napa Valley. You were right of course, the SDS system I used was only a bit better than a well tuned carb. Perhaps in its defense, it was controlling ITB’s that had massive vacuum fluctuations. Your argument, that the factory systems were so much more sophisticated was on my mind when I decided to go with the factory system on the 3.2 that ultimately found its way into my car.
I do think the MS3 described by Andyrew is a much more advanced system and it’s hard to believe SDS is in the same price range. I plan on using this system with the new engine I’m putting in my 240Z.

[Mark Henry]

When I think about EFI, I like the idea of the "who" behind the system.

Any company can go out, but I put more stock in Holley or something like Andrew pointed out (the MS3 unit). I think about some of the old Haltech or other random systems, and trying to keep a 368 or 486 laptop going to support them.

Only way I'd do the Holley or MS3 is if I could use ITBs made for a flat six (i.e. PMOs). But the prices of these units are getting pretty interesting compared to Motec systems of not long ago—even the "budget" ganged four-cylinder Motec setups where you controlled a flat six like an inline three. Now we are seeing price points that make a conversion from a good, sellable set of 911 Webers pretty interesting.

It isn't a bad time to be a car enthusiast...

Pete, I still recall our conversation a decade or so back at that drive-in in Napa Valley. You were right of course, the SDS system I used was only a bit better than a well tuned carb. Perhaps in its defense, it was controlling ITB’s that had massive vacuum fluctuations. Your argument, that the factory systems were so much more sophisticated was on my mind when I decided to go with the factory system on the 3.2 that ultimately found its way into my car.
I do think the MS3 described by Andyrew is a much more advanced system and it’s hard to believe SDS is in the same price range. I plan on using this system with the new engine I’m putting in my 240Z.

No one is criticizing the SDS support. It’s the function I was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Again I ask did you try TPS only? I already know the answer...you didn't.
IIRC your reply to this question was if it won't run proper in MAP it's not a good system.

So basically you're blaming SDS for your improper tuning and a bad engine/intake/cam choices for your expectations.
BTW I'm pretty sure I'm running the same cam you did.

The 3.2 with stock FI is a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) comparison, one is a stock (or near stock) engine and the other is is a hot cam, ITB, poor vacuum, double stock HP engine.

All aftermarket FI systems with ITB's, hot cams and therefore poor vacuum signals have issue with the MAP sensor.
MS is no different, same issue you have to run in what they call "alpha-N" which is exactly what SDS calls TPS only. MS does have an advantage in a single TB with hot cam app as you can help TPS (blend) with MAF sensor.

Running TPS only I've found only a few cons. In stop and go traffic below 3000rpm the engine has trouble at a steady speed. You have to slowly accelerate/decelerate or stay above 3000rpm.
You have to program in a TPS fuel cut or it backfires on deceleration.
The other is in TPS only you turn off altitude correction, exact same thing happens running MS in aplha-N, but the SDS has a rich/lean knob that can be used to easily correct this.

Other than that it runs great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Xmmf9G7Ns



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaFf14DgUs8

[ConeDodger]

When I think about EFI, I like the idea of the "who" behind the system.

Any company can go out, but I put more stock in Holley or something like Andrew pointed out (the MS3 unit). I think about some of the old Haltech or other random systems, and trying to keep a 368 or 486 laptop going to support them.

Only way I'd do the Holley or MS3 is if I could use ITBs made for a flat six (i.e. PMOs). But the prices of these units are getting pretty interesting compared to Motec systems of not long ago—even the "budget" ganged four-cylinder Motec setups where you controlled a flat six like an inline three. Now we are seeing price points that make a conversion from a good, sellable set of 911 Webers pretty interesting.

It isn't a bad time to be a car enthusiast...

Pete, I still recall our conversation a decade or so back at that drive-in in Napa Valley. You were right of course, the SDS system I used was only a bit better than a well tuned carb. Perhaps in its defense, it was controlling ITB’s that had massive vacuum fluctuations. Your argument, that the factory systems were so much more sophisticated was on my mind when I decided to go with the factory system on the 3.2 that ultimately found its way into my car.
I do think the MS3 described by Andyrew is a much more advanced system and it’s hard to believe SDS is in the same price range. I plan on using this system with the new engine I’m putting in my 240Z.

No one is criticizing the SDS support. It’s the function I was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Again I ask did you try TPS only? I already know the answer...you didn't.
IIRC your reply to this question was if it won't run proper in MAP it's not a good system.

So basically you're blaming SDS for your improper tuning and a bad engine/intake/cam choices for your expectations.
BTW I'm pretty sure I'm running the same cam you did.

The 3.2 with stock FI is a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) comparison, one is a stock (or near stock) engine and the other is is a hot cam, ITB, poor vacuum, double stock HP engine.

All aftermarket FI systems with ITB's, hot cams and therefore poor vacuum signals have issue with the MAP sensor.
MS is no different, same issue you have to run in what they call "alpha-N" which is exactly what SDS calls TPS only. MS does have an advantage in a single TB with hot cam app as you can help TPS (blend) with MAF sensor.

Running TPS only I've found only a few cons. In stop and go traffic below 3000rpm the engine has trouble at a steady speed. You have to slowly accelerate/decelerate or stay above 3000rpm.
You have to program in a TPS fuel cut or it backfires on deceleration.
The other is in TPS only you turn off altitude correction, exact same thing happens running MS in aplha-N, but the SDS has a rich/lean knob that can be used to easily correct this.

Other than that it runs great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Xmmf9G7Ns



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaFf14DgUs8

My apologies to those trying to learn from this thread. SDS was mentioned only because of a conversation I had with Pete about it on a BBQ/Tour day. It is pretty Stone Age compared to what is available now. Randall tried it in TPS and it was a compromise at best.

Although I autocross occasionally and do lots of track days, my car primarily sees street time. I can’t be bothered with rich/lean knobs and such. That’s great for aircraft which was originally the SDS target market, but there are just so many better systems now.

Sadly, I am sure Mark will keep pushing TPS and SDS and probably want us all to sing “Oh Canada.” He can’t help himself. It’s all he apparently knows. I know, that others who ran SDS in TPS couldn’t get it to run right in traffic. 10 years ago, I knew a dozen locals running SDS. All of them have moved on.