Show me your roll cage to suspension tower bracing, ..and other bracing/stiffening you've done Options

[naro914]

with all the work we're doing on Papa Smurf, one of big pieces of the development is tying the roll cage to the rear and front suspension points, plus doing tubing to strengthen other points around the car.

Would like to see how people run the tubes from the roll cage, through the fire wall or window, through the engine compartment area, into the rear trunk to the shock towers. We have things in the way there, but will move around if needed....

Thanks!

[GregAmy]

Good morning! Just catching this thread, wanted to follow up. I am a Nationally-licensed SCCA scrutineer and a racer.

First, what the regs were when the car was built*, or what someone may have approved in the past, is not relevant. You have to meet current GCR regs to run in SCCA Club Racing. The GCR is constantly updated and can be found here:

https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules

Rollcage regs have been fairly consistent over the last decade or so; major changes in recent years include:

- Requirement for full-width main hoop bar (mid-90s, due to a cage collapse on an SSB car)
- Requirement for two door bars on drivers side (wreck circa 1999)
- Requirements for two door bars both sides (another wreck, around 2004)

Cage tubing sizes have changed over the years based on design requirements changes; anyone that compares this years book to, say, 1999 will find thicker tubing yet fewer weight brackets.

Now, there are some design elements of the rollcage that can be grandfathered in for cars that have been previously logbooked*, but generally there is a minimum-required safety standard that all cars have to meet, regardless of initial logbook issuance.

This car's requirements fall under GCR 9.4, "ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS", page GCR 86 in the December PDF. Further, since it has the full windshield, it cannot take advantage of the "asymmetric" hoop design. Is the car going to be run with the targa top? Then it's considered an enclosed car. Without the Targa is "open top" regs.

Per the discussions above, GCR 9.4.B.2.a clearly states, "Main hoops shall incorporate a diagonal brace", which this one has.

However, GCR 9.4.B.2.b also clearly states, "Cars must incorporate a main hoop horizontal brace at the approximate level of the driver’s shoulders but not lower than the shoulder belt mounting point as described in section 9.3."

This car does not have that required horizontal brace.

GCR 9.4.C.1.c clearly states, "All open cars with a high front hoop and all closed cars except those competing in the T4, Improved Touring, Spec Miata, and B-Spec classes must incorporate a horizontal front hoop brace at the approximate level of the dashboard."

This car does not yet have that required horizontal brace.

I don't recall reading what the weight of your car is, but I'm assuming you'll fit into the 1701-2699 pound bracket. That requires 1.50x.095 or 1.625x.0080 minimum DOM mild steel. I do NOT recommend chromoly, simply because none of us generally have the ability to properly heat treat welded chromoly tubing. Stick with DOM mild steel.

It's all fine and good that someone has signed off the car, and that you have not had any grief from anyone in subsequent annual inspections and events. When I'm initially inspecting a car and issuing a logbook, I'm quite careful and detailed and ensure everything is up to spec. However, I'll freely admit that when doing subsequent annual inspections I'm less careful, trusting prior scrutineers' inspections. So it's certainly probable that this has slipped through some scrutineers' eyes. Or, we've taken it for granted that since the car has been racing for seemingly forever the design must be fine.

But just because it's been that way forever doesn't mean it meets the current regs. Maybe the regs have changed since it was initially inspected?

Bottom line, based on very little info in this thread, I do not believe the current design meets the current SCCA GCR requirements. And while you've been perfectly fine racing it that way, you run the risk of someone casually looking inside and thinking, "hey, that's not right" and they pull you off the track for not meeting minimum safety requirements. Believe me, I've done it (stick your finger around the top of some production-car-based rollcages and you may find incomplete welds (yeah, I couldn't get up there), poor welding quality (well the last guy passed it!) and I've even seen people using JB Weld or body putty to make really bad welds look good.

If I see that, I won't allow you on the track. I can't, it's not right.

Finally, I read some comments above about this cage being built to FIA specs. That's a great start! However note that unless the cage is actually "FIA Certified" for its application, it is still required to meet SCCA minimum design requirements. And, if the cage actually is "FIA Certified" then the inspector needs to have that paperwork to use as a basis for issuing the logbook, and once issued that cage cannot be subsequently modified. So I don't think we're looking at any kind of FIA certification that applies here.

Download the GCR, it's free. These are the minimum standards that have to be met. Always print it out and bring it to your cage builder, ensure he/she reads and understands it, and asks you if they have any questions.

*Now, THAT ALL SAID...there exists in the GCR Appendix I which exists for cars logbooked prior to 2008 (what's the initial date of your first SCCA logbook issued?) At the time of writing, "GT" cars were considered to be those of tubeframe construction, so I suggest yours would use the Production regs.

It's not a group of regs that I encourage anyone to use; after all, the latest rollcage regs have all been written in someone's blood, and these Appendix I allowance were a nod to old cars that may show up once in a while.

Despite this, within Appendix I the horizontal bracing is not explicitly called out, and the accompanying drawings indicate that the horizontal bar is "recommended."

"It is recommended that the vertical bars of the front hoop be connected by a horizontal bar at a point above the driver’s legs."

I also point out that Appendix I states, "Specific installations are subject to approval by the Technical and Safety Inspectors at each event." So you're still maintain some risk of being excluded. Better keep a copy of the GCR with you and be prepared to plead your case.

If your car has its initial logbook prior to 2008, you may choose to use a cage to either specs. However, note Appendix I was intended to grandfather legacy cars that were already built, ones that were not expected to be updated for competition. As such, the logbook goes with the cage, kinda like how the engine number goes with the chassis. If you replace and/or recreate that cage, you lose that logbook and must build your new cage to the latest requirements. Though, it's quite likely you can find a buddy locally to wink, wink, nod, nod re-stamp your new cage with the old number and pretend it's the original cage. That's up to your conscience, no one else will know except you two...

I've been doing this for a while, long enough to know exactly who these regs were written from. For example, Jay Wright at the 1993(?) Runoffs was the impetus for the horizontal bar. We used to only install a half-width horizontal bar, from the driver's side to the diagonal, to keep the seat from moving backwards in a crash and allowing the driver's head to hit the diagonal element. We also used it for shoulder harness attachments. That's what was in Jay's SSB car when it hit the tire wall along the Road Atlanta front straight coming out of Turn 12. The car went airborne and landed on the roof. The diagonal along with the horizontal half-element moved out of the plane of the main hoop, allowing the main hoop to collapse sideways and the roof came "down" on Jay's head, making him a paraplegic until the day he died. He lived a good life, and did a lot of good things for racing (technical recommendations, scrutineering, developing an affordable H&NR, the Wright Device; he was actually a NASA rocket scientist) before eventually succumbing to complications from his injuries.

As a result, we began requiring the horizontal to go all the way across and we added a diagonal within the rear hoop bracings.

Bottom line, do you want to be out there among big-bore fast cars with a outdated cage? Again, your call. After all, in the end it's your ass on the line, not mine. I sign off on your max-built cage and then you wreck your car, I go to the worker party and have some beer. I sign off your minimum-built cage and you wreck your car, I still go to the worker party and have some beer. But we'll hoist one in your honor.

I know this was a windy, heady, "harsh my mellow" post, and I apologize for those bored with it. But I do encourage well-built safety systems that exceed the minimum requirements.

Greg

[Heater Guy]

Good morning! Just catching this thread, wanted to follow up. I am a Nationally-licensed SCCA scrutineer and a racer.

First, what the regs were when the car was built*, or what someone may have approved in the past, is not relevant. You have to meet current GCR regs to run in SCCA Club Racing. The GCR is constantly updated and can be found here:

https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules

Rollcage regs have been fairly consistent over the last decade or so; major changes in recent years include:

- Requirement for full-width main hoop bar (mid-90s, due to a cage collapse on an SSB car)
- Requirement for two door bars on drivers side (wreck circa 1999)
- Requirements for two door bars both sides (another wreck, around 2004)

Cage tubing sizes have changed over the years based on design requirements changes; anyone that compares this years book to, say, 1999 will find thicker tubing yet fewer weight brackets.

Now, there are some design elements of the rollcage that can be grandfathered in for cars that have been previously logbooked*, but generally there is a minimum-required safety standard that all cars have to meet, regardless of initial logbook issuance.

This car's requirements fall under GCR 9.4, "ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS", page GCR 86 in the December PDF. Further, since it has the full windshield, it cannot take advantage of the "asymmetric" hoop design. Is the car going to be run with the targa top? Then it's considered an enclosed car. Without the Targa is "open top" regs.

Per the discussions above, GCR 9.4.B.2.a clearly states, "Main hoops shall incorporate a diagonal brace", which this one has.

However, GCR 9.4.B.2.b also clearly states, "Cars must incorporate a main hoop horizontal brace at the approximate level of the driver’s shoulders but not lower than the shoulder belt mounting point as described in section 9.3."

This car does not have that required horizontal brace.

GCR 9.4.C.1.c clearly states, "All open cars with a high front hoop and all closed cars except those competing in the T4, Improved Touring, Spec Miata, and B-Spec classes must incorporate a horizontal front hoop brace at the approximate level of the dashboard."

This car does not yet have that required horizontal brace.

I don't recall reading what the weight of your car is, but I'm assuming you'll fit into the 1701-2699 pound bracket. That requires 1.50x.095 or 1.625x.0080 minimum DOM mild steel. I do NOT recommend chromoly, simply because none of us generally have the ability to properly heat treat welded chromoly tubing. Stick with DOM mild steel.

It's all fine and good that someone has signed off the car, and that you have not had any grief from anyone in subsequent annual inspections and events. When I'm initially inspecting a car and issuing a logbook, I'm quite careful and detailed and ensure everything is up to spec. However, I'll freely admit that when doing subsequent annual inspections I'm less careful, trusting prior scrutineers' inspections. So it's certainly probable that this has slipped through some scrutineers' eyes. Or, we've taken it for granted that since the car has been racing for seemingly forever the design must be fine.

But just because it's been that way forever doesn't mean it meets the current regs. Maybe the regs have changed since it was initially inspected?

Bottom line, based on very little info in this thread, I do not believe the current design meets the current SCCA GCR requirements. And while you've been perfectly fine racing it that way, you run the risk of someone casually looking inside and thinking, "hey, that's not right" and they pull you off the track for not meeting minimum safety requirements. Believe me, I've done it (stick your finger around the top of some production-car-based rollcages and you may find incomplete welds (yeah, I couldn't get up there), poor welding quality (well the last guy passed it!) and I've even seen people using JB Weld or body putty to make really bad welds look good.

If I see that, I won't allow you on the track. I can't, it's not right.

Finally, I read some comments above about this cage being built to FIA specs. That's a great start! However note that unless the cage is actually "FIA Certified" for its application, it is still required to meet SCCA minimum design requirements. And, if the cage actually is "FIA Certified" then the inspector needs to have that paperwork to use as a basis for issuing the logbook, and once issued that cage cannot be subsequently modified. So I don't think we're looking at any kind of FIA certification that applies here.

Download the GCR, it's free. These are the minimum standards that have to be met. Always print it out and bring it to your cage builder, ensure he/she reads and understands it, and asks you if they have any questions.

*Now, THAT ALL SAID...there exists in the GCR Appendix I which exists for cars logbooked prior to 2008 (what's the initial date of your first SCCA logbook issued?) At the time of writing, "GT" cars were considered to be those of tubeframe construction, so I suggest yours would use the Production regs.

It's not a group of regs that I encourage anyone to use; after all, the latest rollcage regs have all been written in someone's blood, and these Appendix I allowance were a nod to old cars that may show up once in a while.

Despite this, within Appendix I the horizontal bracing is not explicitly called out, and the accompanying drawings indicate that the horizontal bar is "recommended."

"It is recommended that the vertical bars of the front hoop be connected by a horizontal bar at a point above the driver’s legs."

I also point out that Appendix I states, "Specific installations are subject to approval by the Technical and Safety Inspectors at each event." So you're still maintain some risk of being excluded. Better keep a copy of the GCR with you and be prepared to plead your case.

If your car has its initial logbook prior to 2008, you may choose to use a cage to either specs. However, note Appendix I was intended to grandfather legacy cars that were already built, ones that were not expected to be updated for competition. As such, the logbook goes with the cage, kinda like how the engine number goes with the chassis. If you replace and/or recreate that cage, you lose that logbook and must build your new cage to the latest requirements. Though, it's quite likely you can find a buddy locally to wink, wink, nod, nod re-stamp your new cage with the old number and pretend it's the original cage. That's up to your conscience, no one else will know except you two...

I've been doing this for a while, long enough to know exactly who these regs were written from. For example, Jay Wright at the 1993(?) Runoffs was the impetus for the horizontal bar. We used to only install a half-width horizontal bar, from the driver's side to the diagonal, to keep the seat from moving backwards in a crash and allowing the driver's head to hit the diagonal element. We also used it for shoulder harness attachments. That's what was in Jay's SSB car when it hit the tire wall along the Road Atlanta front straight coming out of Turn 12. The car went airborne and landed on the roof. The diagonal along with the horizontal half-element moved out of the plane of the main hoop, allowing the main hoop to collapse sideways and the roof came "down" on Jay's head, making him a paraplegic until the day he died. He lived a good life, and did a lot of good things for racing (technical recommendations, scrutineering, developing an affordable H&NR, the Wright Device; he was actually a NASA rocket scientist) before eventually succumbing to complications from his injuries.

As a result, we began requiring the horizontal to go all the way across and we added a diagonal within the rear hoop bracings.

Bottom line, do you want to be out there among big-bore fast cars with a outdated cage? Again, your call. After all, in the end it's your ass on the line, not mine. I sign off on your max-built cage and then you wreck your car, I go to the worker party and have some beer. I sign off your minimum-built cage and you wreck your car, I still go to the worker party and have some beer. But we'll hoist one in your honor.

I know this was a windy, heady, "harsh my mellow" post, and I apologize for those bored with it. But I do encourage well-built safety systems that exceed the minimum requirements.

Greg

Thanks for the explanation.

Ron
SFR. Pit Fire 09 T2