Major Cooling System issues, Flap system removed by PO Options

[Gatornapper]

Need the Brain Trust help again - big time.

Up to now, nothing I've faced in getting this sweet 14 running and back on the road has been major or disheartening. Lots of new stuff, running pretty good but not perfect, etc. That just changed.

Ever since getting the engine running a few months ago, I was concerned that it took a long time to warm up. My first 1 hour + drive was last week - and temps got too high for my comfort - about 1/4" from red line. So I've been drilling down on that issue.

For one thing, car sat in a barn (new one) for 12 years - so I wondered about mice nests above the cylinders from the day I bought the car. Yesterday with my scope I found, yes, they are there between the cylinders - at least between 2 & 4. I think I can get them out with a small vacuum through the spark plug holes in the top tins.....we'll see.

Due to total ignorance of 914's and VW engines, I know nothing of the air ducting system, but in the learning process, and thanks to anderssj , I find the whole flap/door system and its controls are missing. Gone.

So I can only assume that the PO removed them due to problems with overheating. Stupid move for sure. I have to correct that. I understand that move itself could cause overheating.

I dread pulling the carbs, intake manifolds, distributor and other stuff to get the top tins off.

Plan is to see if I can get the mouse stuff off the cylinders with a small vacuum, make sure all is clean with my scope. If successful, I'll then drive the car and see if it still gets too hot. If I can't get the debris removed with vacuum, I know I have to pull the top tins.

But I am told that not having the flap system itself could cause overheating. So I have to get that system installed and working.

Yes, I know the many potential causes of overheating like improper timing, plugs, etc. Timing good, plugs good - new. Valves adjusted by dealer about 1,500 miles ago.

Got a lot of work ahead - all when I wanted to have the car ready for the big PCA 9/14 914 Vintage Drive.

Any help and advice is of course, as always, appreciated.

GN

[Gatornapper]

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

[Rand]

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.

Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.

Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).

[Superhawk996]

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.

Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.

Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Having money to race 911's is no indication of mechanical aptitude. I've built and crewed on many race cars for a rich owners that had absolutely no mechanical knowledge.

There is no point in asking why they were removed. Asking the uninformed for their rationale will not change the fact that these engines rely on the flaps to direct air to the oil cooler. Just buy a set of flaps. In my case, I found a front shroud complete with flaps for about $50.00 on eBay. Members here will help you find a set of flaps.

The flaps are an absolute MUST for getting air directed across the oil cooler. Over the years numerous well intended people removed the flaps thinking it helps when it is in fact the exact opposite. A lack of flaps will induce slow warm up, excess water condensation in the oil, and ultimately overheating once the engine is under load.

Forget the term air cooled - these engines are heavily OIL Cooled.

Easiest path to success is to bite the bullet, drop the engine, clear any mouse nest debris and ensure the oil cooler is clear.

Please look at my build thread (PAGE 6) in my signature if you want to see can happen to the internals of an engine run without flaps.

Type 4's are not complex engines but they do demand proper treatment. Removal of the flaps is a clear indication that the previous owner had absolutely no idea of what he was doing.

[Gatornapper]

Loud and clear, SH.

Do I HAVE to drop the engine to put the flaps in?

TIA,

GN

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.

Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.

Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Having money to race 911's is no indication of mechanical aptitude. I've built and crewed on many a race cars for a rich owners that had absolutely no mechanical knowledge.

There is no point in asking why they were removed. Asking the uninformed for their rationale will not change the fact that these engines rely on the flaps to direct air to the oil cooler. Just buy a set of flaps. In my case, I found a front shroud complete with flaps for about $50.00 on eBay. Members here will help you find a set of flaps.

The flaps are an absolute MUST for getting air directed across the oil cooler. Over the years numerous well intended people removed the flaps thinking it helps when it is in fact the exact opposite. A lack of flaps will induce slow warm up, excess water condensation in the oil, and ultimately overheating once the engine is under load.

Forget the term air cooled - these engines are heavily OIL Cooled.

Easiest path to success is to bite the bullet, drop the engine, clear any mouse nest debris and ensure the oil cooler is clear.

Please look at my build thread (PAGE 6) in my signature if you want to see can happen to the internals of an engine run without flaps.

Type 4's are not complex engines but they do demand proper treatment. Removal of the flaps is a clear indication that the previous owner had absolutely no idea of what he was doing.