Need the Brain Trust help again - big time.

Up to now, nothing I've faced in getting this sweet 14 running and back on the road has been major or disheartening. Lots of new stuff, running pretty good but not perfect, etc. That just changed.

Ever since getting the engine running a few months ago, I was concerned that it took a long time to warm up. My first 1 hour + drive was last week - and temps got too high for my comfort - about 1/4" from red line. So I've been drilling down on that issue.

For one thing, car sat in a barn (new one) for 12 years - so I wondered about mice nests above the cylinders from the day I bought the car. Yesterday with my scope I found, yes, they are there between the cylinders - at least between 2 & 4. I think I can get them out with a small vacuum through the spark plug holes in the top tins.....we'll see.

Due to total ignorance of 914's and VW engines, I know nothing of the air ducting system, but in the learning process, and thanks to anderssj , I find the whole flap/door system and its controls are missing. Gone.

So I can only assume that the PO removed them due to problems with overheating. Stupid move for sure. I have to correct that. I understand that move itself could cause overheating.

I dread pulling the carbs, intake manifolds, distributor and other stuff to get the top tins off.

Plan is to see if I can get the mouse stuff off the cylinders with a small vacuum, make sure all is clean with my scope. If successful, I'll then drive the car and see if it still gets too hot. If I can't get the debris removed with vacuum, I know I have to pull the top tins.

But I am told that not having the flap system itself could cause overheating. So I have to get that system installed and working.

Yes, I know the many potential causes of overheating like improper timing, plugs, etc. Timing good, plugs good - new. Valves adjusted by dealer about 1,500 miles ago.

Got a lot of work ahead - all when I wanted to have the car ready for the big PCA 9/14 914 Vintage Drive.

Any help and advice is of course, as always, appreciated.

GN

Did you scope the oil cooler to ensure that it was not caked over with mouse stuff or crusty oil?

I agree on the absence of oil flaps contributing to overheating. if you examine the photo you will not even though it looks like the oil cooler is covered, the extension of the flap in to the air stream forces a huge amount of air on to the oil cooler.

Without it the air follows the path of least resistance and goes to the cylinders and very little to the cooler.

Click to view attachment

Not a good situation for effective cooling!

You sound a bit like a doctor that needs to perform surgery but doesn’t want to get blood on his hands. Get in there and get dirty! Removing the carbs, intakes, and distributor is simple and probably should be done anyway for evaluation.

Ansbacher

You may want to consider dropping the engine. Heck, if you haven’t done it yet, nows a good time. Allows you to clean it up nice and get your flaps and a thermostat installed. Plus a bunch of whileyou’reintheres...

It’s not that hard to do.

Good luck

Trying to remove the tins with the engine in the car is back breaking and not fun. Save yourself the frustration and pull the engine. Video how-to in my link below...

I second that. It is not hard. Bring the tranz out too. Just a good weekend job. I mean the whole thing.... remove, clean, install flaps, clean some more, re-install, the rest of Sunday can be spent driving.

Great pix Mike. I can't quite read the link. where did you get them?

http://www.volksbolts.com/

Drop the engine and take your time doing this right.

It's not that complicated to do:
http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_engdrop1.php

Remove the carbs as a unit not to include the intakes. 16 nuts, fuel supply hose, the throttle cable and lift it off. I find it easier to drop the engine with the carbs off. You don't have to raise the car as high. Put paper towels in the intakes to keep crap out. This way preserves your current linkage setup. Remove the dist cap and turn the engine over until the rotor lines up with the notch in the dist body. Note the spark plug wires orientation. There is always the chance the distributor is installed 180* out. After pulling the dist do not rotate the engine.

https://www.ratwell.com/technical/Thermostats.html

I know you said you were studying up..... If you have not read this, please do.

you MUST reinstall the flaps!!!!! good time to clean out the fins and the oil cooler, and make sure that the rest of the sheet metal is attached

I sort of wonder how this whole pull the flaps myth got started.

My original engine suffered the same fate with PO pulling flaps. That engine really suffered because of it.

Guess the Germans were believed to have been putting unnecessary parts on cars despite 30 or more years of experience with air cooled engines by the time the 1st 914 hit the road.

I wonder if it is a type 1 cooling flap myth that came over to the type 4. Always heard about type 1 guys removing flaps for supposedly more air flow.

Do it once and do it right,good chance to check everything,as mentioned the cooler will be dirty ,clean it inside and out,give the engine a good clean @ the same time that helps with cooling,replace all missing parts also,good luck.

This is how it starts. 'While you're in there...'.

You're going to have to pull the intake manifolds to get the upper tin off.

You need to drop the engine. You have enough stuff going on that trying to work on it with the engine in it's little cocoon is an absolute nightmare. Once you drop the engine you'll understand why everyone is saying to do it.

The worst part about dropping the engine is thinking about it. Once out, everything is at your fingertips. You can clean the critter nests out, degrease, repair/replace the cooling tins, repaint/powdercoat the tins. Also doing a valve adjustment on the engine out is a breeze.

I've dropped the engine twice in my 914 and both times by myself. The biggest pain in the ass as far as I'm concerned are the CV joints. When disconnecting them from the transmission now the actual CVs are open and that grease can get on everything.

If any of the heating tubes under the car are missing this would be a good time to install them. Are all the tubes in place? Do you have heat exchangers?

Drop the motor. It's easy.

Once its out, then I would suggest a new oil cooler and seals, plus reinstall the flaps.

Guys all - I hear you, loud and clear.

Engine will not only be dropped and flaps added before it is put back, it will be rebuilt. Y'all misread me - no fear of dropping engine - have lift & everything I need to do it.

No compression in 3 & 4 - 60 psi. Was 90/100 4,000 miles ago when checked at local dealer. Only 100 & 102 in 1 and 2....same as dealer had.

Today I pulled out a cubic foot of mouse nest on the right on top of 3 & 4. Will post pic tomorrow since I have to upload it first to a pic website. Left side clean and open, right side now clean and open. Will try to scope oil cooler tomorrow, but right now it's a moot point.

Huge decision on engine rebuild though.....for my Weber 44's, increasing bore & stroke, adding cam? or for the original D-jet?

I'll address that on my other thread.

Thanks again everyone for all the help and great advice.

GN

Oh Dude! So sorry to hear about cyl #3 & 4. Likely the overheating mouse nest lead to catastrophic sealing issue on that side.

Really makes me mad that the dealer wouldn't take a peek in there. Especially in an age of $100 bore scopes. Why is everyone now a days just trying to get by on the bare minimum?

I recently tore down GA000099 and yup, a huge mouse next in #1/2 and the oil cooler is nearly full restriction due to grease & cottonwood fluff.

Rebuilds aren't hard - just take your time.

With respect to the CV's getting grease everywhere . . . . put a 1 gallon Ziplock freezer bag (or better - two for durability) over them immediately upon disconnect. Tape it closed. Grease contamination and transfer to everything else is solved or greatly minimized.

Do not pull the rear axle stub and roll the vehicle or the wheel bearings will be destroyed. Bungee works to keep axles from flopping around if you need to roll with CV's in place.

Superhawk -

Was MY BAD, not the dealer who checked the compression in 2005 and 4k miles ago. Don't know of car setting at all when he checked it.

Car sat in barn for 12 years - I thought of the possibility of a nest, but thought I'd just be careful watching temp.

In many drives of 30 min or less, car never even reached operating temp. Over a dozen drives. So I figured no problem. No nest, right? I had no idea flaps had been removed preventing normal warm up.

So then last Friday I took the car for its first long drive. No problem for first hour or so. Then got on interstate, and watched it go high - but never reach the red......If it touched the red, I was pulling over and shutting down. And I was too far from home to just pull over and let it cool since it wasn't in the red.

So it was my doing the damage from not understanding the system. MY BAD!

But 90/100 isn't good compression anyway, so a rebuild has always been a known possibility.

GN

When you've pulled the driveshafts from the gearbox just pull a plastic bag or cheap rubber glove over the cv joint and ziptie it in place untill you are ready to reinstall.

I hate cv joint grease !

As a note, it generally thought that pulling over and immediately shutting down a hot engine is bad. Sometime you have no choice but if you can pull over and sit for a few minutes with the engine at 2,000 it will greatly reduce eh potential for damage and help dissipate the built up heat.

The Temp gauge is fine but you really need to add a cylinder head temperature (CHT) sensor. the CHT will give you advance warning that you are heating up help predict lean operation of the engine.

My bad - jumping to a conclusion.

I read that as if the dealer had recently checked the compression recently.

Still sorry to hear the tale of woe.

Great tip! I use plastic bags for similar containment....just makes sense.

Thanks!

GN

Update:

Engine was cold yesterday when I took compression readings. Warmed it up today, and they are a tiny bit better - explain why the engine doesn't run too bad. 3 was 85 and 4 was 90.

So a top-end rebuild is still ahead........open to suggestions for the best package for installing the D-jet and best suggestions for keeping the Weber 44's and existing bottom end......

GN

SH -

You didn't jump to conclusions. In desiring to be brief, I left out a lot of details. You didn't have enough to work with.

GN

Ran engine today in 93* ambient until gauge was just over halfway, maybe 5/8 over position, read oil temp with infrared scanner at oil filter & crankcase: 252*

Would like to get my scope into area above oil cooler, but cannot see anyway to do it except pull front right tin - can I do this w/o pulling distributor? Any other way to get my scope in there?

TIA,

GN

Still wondering if there is a way to see the top of the oil cooler with my scope - it's about 3/8" diameter on 24" flex shaft.

Sure like to know if there is debris blocking the airflow.

TIA,

GN

Have you tried going in through the #4 spark plug hole in the sheet-metal?
It seems like a logical entry point.

Jim

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. You know the cooling flaps, bellow and wire need to be installed. You'll see if the oil cooler needs to be addressed when you get the tin off. If you scope it and it's fouled you're right back to square one. Trying to squirt brake cleaner on the cooler as it sits is a waste of time and money. The stench will be massive after a couple of cans.

Rhodyguy -

You are right on.

So, can I install the flaps, bellow and wire from up top? Do I just take off the front tins? Bellow/thermostat goes below, right? Having never seen one, I don't know - Haynes manual is clear as mud.

Where can I find all I need for the flaps, etc.? All the parts?

So I am focused on putting the flaps in next. But I need all the help I can get - I am the greenest of green on all things 914. And I don't have another one nearby to check out....that I know of.

Appreciate all the help.......

GN

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

There’s bugging a previous owner with a multitude of questions, and then there’s asking if he might have the parts that were removed that have caused your issues.

See if he has them, or anything else that you could use. Might save you some scrambling about to locate what you need

Good luck

Here’s a shot with the shroud and heater tins removed.


Click to view attachment

PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.

Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.

Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).

WHY the P.O. removed the system is not relevant to the discussion.

Great idea, thank you, but "Been there, done that" ,

He made it very clear last time I talked and asked about missing parts, "I gave you ALL THE PARTS I HAVE. I don't have any more!" Yes, I got a nasty fuel tank the dealer had totally redone in 2005 by someone who didn't know what they were doing, and I had it done again by a pro with lifetime warranty - and a large box of too many parts to list.

BTW, I bought the car 2 years ago too.

BUT, I will ask him why he removed the flaps......

GN

Having money to race 911's is no indication of mechanical aptitude. I've built and crewed on many race cars for a rich owners that had absolutely no mechanical knowledge.

There is no point in asking why they were removed. Asking the uninformed for their rationale will not change the fact that these engines rely on the flaps to direct air to the oil cooler. Just buy a set of flaps. In my case, I found a front shroud complete with flaps for about $50.00 on eBay. Members here will help you find a set of flaps.

The flaps are an absolute MUST for getting air directed across the oil cooler. Over the years numerous well intended people removed the flaps thinking it helps when it is in fact the exact opposite. A lack of flaps will induce slow warm up, excess water condensation in the oil, and ultimately overheating once the engine is under load.

Forget the term air cooled - these engines are heavily OIL Cooled.

Easiest path to success is to bite the bullet, drop the engine, clear any mouse nest debris and ensure the oil cooler is clear.

Please look at my build thread (PAGE 6) in my signature if you want to see can happen to the internals of an engine run without flaps.

Type 4's are not complex engines but they do demand proper treatment. Removal of the flaps is a clear indication that the previous owner had absolutely no idea of what he was doing.

Loud and clear, SH.

Do I HAVE to drop the engine to put the flaps in?

TIA,

GN

FYI - dropping the engine is no problem in and of itself.

What is the problem is that my lift bay is in demand for other work and vehicles and if it is going to be tied up for any period of time, I need to plan that well in advance.

Dropping the engine will tie up my lift bay for some time, as I am involved in 100 other things besides working on my 914......actually, working on it is something I do in my spare time......and because of that I don't know how long it will take me to do the work with the flaps.

I also don't want to drop the engine twice in a short period of time. It needs a top-end rebuild and I need to plan that out. I'm still not certain of which way I want to go on that.

Hopes this helps to explain some of my comments......the problem and issue is timing, not technicals.......

GN

On a 914 it is much easier to just drop the engine and then do work.

I constantly see people trying to do work with the engine in the car and often it can be done. BUT, it is so much harder.

Only takes about 90 minutes to drop the engine, trans, muffler assembly and then everything is right out in the open. First time will take you longer but honestly once you've done it once, it is so easy after that.

In the case of the flaps, you'll need to pull the front fan shroud castings - I honestly don't believe that can be done with the engine in. If it could be done, it will be so much harder that it makes the discussion irrelevant.

If you have the luxury of having $$, buy the Tangerine engine lift adapter for your floor jack. I think $129. Makes life so easy.

Having said that, the bulk of the the time I owned my 1st 914 I was either in the military as a poor E2/E3 or in college with even less money.

I restored my 1st car with nothing more than a K-mart socket set, vice grips, a few screwdrivers, a hammer, and a 1 1/2 ton K-mart floor jack. Dropped the engine many times with nothing more than than what is listed above.

I promise dropping the engine isn't that hard and it will save you so much time in the long run. This is true of nearly every mid-engine car whether its a Fiero or a Ferrari.

Wait. You have access to all this. and it... sounds just like a former troll. Just do some work.

Drop engine - then roll car off host to make room for what ever other projects you have. I understand.

Heck I've never had a hoist that is a luxury I can't yet afford. I've dropped 914 engines in the grass with just a sheet of plywood to allow the floor jack to roll back 5 foot.

Don't worry about dropping twice. After the 1st time it is so simple you'll laugh.

DO NOT pull the rear hubs - just disconnect the CV's and bungee them and/or roll carefully. Rolling without a rear stub will lead to rear bearing damage.

I actually have two spare rear hub stubs - if you would rather pull the whole rear axle CV assembly inclusive of the rear stubs, I'd be happy to either sell you my spare pair if you want a spare pair or I'll even to loan them to you for duration of your project if you just want to borrow then return.

Love your style. That's how most of us get it done.

Unless the CVs are stuck/bonded to the rear of the hubs there's no reason to pull the whole axle/hub assem.

Pulling the rear stub carries some risk in itself of accidentally separating the bearing races, losing balls, or contamination of the bearings.

Some folks just seem to prefer to pull the whole axle inclusive of CV's and stubs.

I suggest you try to do this with the engine in the car. After about 30 minutes of bending, struggling, and coming to the realization that it’s not really feasible/doable, you’ll resolve yourself to dropping the engine and doing the job, rather than hoping there’s another way. There’s an amazing wealth of knowledge on this site, but it serves no good at all if you don’t utilize it

The link in my signature has a video on how to drop the engine. You’ll see that it’s pretty easy, especially if you have the tangerine jack plate (which you’ll see in the video). If you PM, I’m happy to answer any other questions you have.

Just get to it! It’ll be done in less time than it took to build this thread. If you have all the parts, the drop/fix/reinstall shouldn’t take more than an afternoon....so your bay can go back to other things.

You forgot the 30 minutes to put all the loose stuff back in place that will now likely preclude dropping the engine cleanly!

@Gatornapper
Not laughing at you -- its just that this subject of whether to drop or not to drop comes up so often its funny on it's own merit.

we Joke because we care. We’ve all been there, done that and are just trying to help you benefit from our pain.