Major Cooling System issues, Flap system removed by PO Options

[Gatornapper]

Need the Brain Trust help again - big time.

Up to now, nothing I've faced in getting this sweet 14 running and back on the road has been major or disheartening. Lots of new stuff, running pretty good but not perfect, etc. That just changed.

Ever since getting the engine running a few months ago, I was concerned that it took a long time to warm up. My first 1 hour + drive was last week - and temps got too high for my comfort - about 1/4" from red line. So I've been drilling down on that issue.

For one thing, car sat in a barn (new one) for 12 years - so I wondered about mice nests above the cylinders from the day I bought the car. Yesterday with my scope I found, yes, they are there between the cylinders - at least between 2 & 4. I think I can get them out with a small vacuum through the spark plug holes in the top tins.....we'll see.

Due to total ignorance of 914's and VW engines, I know nothing of the air ducting system, but in the learning process, and thanks to anderssj , I find the whole flap/door system and its controls are missing. Gone.

So I can only assume that the PO removed them due to problems with overheating. Stupid move for sure. I have to correct that. I understand that move itself could cause overheating.

I dread pulling the carbs, intake manifolds, distributor and other stuff to get the top tins off.

Plan is to see if I can get the mouse stuff off the cylinders with a small vacuum, make sure all is clean with my scope. If successful, I'll then drive the car and see if it still gets too hot. If I can't get the debris removed with vacuum, I know I have to pull the top tins.

But I am told that not having the flap system itself could cause overheating. So I have to get that system installed and working.

Yes, I know the many potential causes of overheating like improper timing, plugs, etc. Timing good, plugs good - new. Valves adjusted by dealer about 1,500 miles ago.

Got a lot of work ahead - all when I wanted to have the car ready for the big PCA 9/14 914 Vintage Drive.

Any help and advice is of course, as always, appreciated.

GN

[Mblizzard]

Did you scope the oil cooler to ensure that it was not caked over with mouse stuff or crusty oil?

I agree on the absence of oil flaps contributing to overheating. if you examine the photo you will not even though it looks like the oil cooler is covered, the extension of the flap in to the air stream forces a huge amount of air on to the oil cooler.

Without it the air follows the path of least resistance and goes to the cylinders and very little to the cooler.



Not a good situation for effective cooling!

[Ansbacher]

You sound a bit like a doctor that needs to perform surgery but doesn’t want to get blood on his hands. Get in there and get dirty! Removing the carbs, intakes, and distributor is simple and probably should be done anyway for evaluation.

Ansbacher

[Porschef]

You may want to consider dropping the engine. Heck, if you haven’t done it yet, nows a good time. Allows you to clean it up nice and get your flaps and a thermostat installed. Plus a bunch of whileyou’reintheres...

It’s not that hard to do.

Good luck

[iankarr]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Trying to remove the tins with the engine in the car is back breaking and not fun. Save yourself the frustration and pull the engine. Video how-to in my link below...

[malcolm2]

You may want to consider dropping the engine. Heck, if you haven’t done it yet, nows a good time. Allows you to clean it up nice and get your flaps and a thermostat installed. Plus a bunch of whileyou’reintheres...

It’s not that hard to do.

Good luck

I second that. It is not hard. Bring the tranz out too. Just a good weekend job. I mean the whole thing.... remove, clean, install flaps, clean some more, re-install, the rest of Sunday can be spent driving.

[malcolm2]

Did you scope the oil cooler to ensure that it was not caked over with mouse stuff or crusty oil?

I agree on the absence of oil flaps contributing to overheating. if you examine the photo you will not even though it looks like the oil cooler is covered, the extension of the flap in to the air stream forces a huge amount of air on to the oil cooler.

Without it the air follows the path of least resistance and goes to the cylinders and very little to the cooler.



Not a good situation for effective cooling!

Great pix Mike. I can't quite read the link. where did you get them?

[Mblizzard]

Did you scope the oil cooler to ensure that it was not caked over with mouse stuff or crusty oil?

I agree on the absence of oil flaps contributing to overheating. if you examine the photo you will not even though it looks like the oil cooler is covered, the extension of the flap in to the air stream forces a huge amount of air on to the oil cooler.

Without it the air follows the path of least resistance and goes to the cylinders and very little to the cooler.



Not a good situation for effective cooling!

Great pix Mike. I can't quite read the link. where did you get them?

http://www.volksbolts.com/

[SirAndy]

You may want to consider dropping the engine. Heck, if you haven’t done it yet, nows a good time. Allows you to clean it up nice and get your flaps and a thermostat installed. Plus a bunch of whileyou’reintheres...
It’s not that hard to do.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Drop the engine and take your time doing this right.

It's not that complicated to do:
http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_engdrop1.php

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

[rhodyguy]

Remove the carbs as a unit not to include the intakes. 16 nuts, fuel supply hose, the throttle cable and lift it off. I find it easier to drop the engine with the carbs off. You don't have to raise the car as high. Put paper towels in the intakes to keep crap out. This way preserves your current linkage setup. Remove the dist cap and turn the engine over until the rotor lines up with the notch in the dist body. Note the spark plug wires orientation. There is always the chance the distributor is installed 180* out. After pulling the dist do not rotate the engine.

[malcolm2]

https://www.ratwell.com/technical/Thermostats.html

I know you said you were studying up..... If you have not read this, please do.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

you MUST reinstall the flaps!!!!! good time to clean out the fins and the oil cooler, and make sure that the rest of the sheet metal is attached

Need the Brain Trust help again - big time.

Up to now, nothing I've faced in getting this sweet 14 running and back on the road has been major or disheartening. Lots of new stuff, running pretty good but not perfect, etc. That just changed.

Ever since getting the engine running a few months ago, I was concerned that it took a long time to warm up. My first 1 hour + drive was last week - and temps got too high for my comfort - about 1/4" from red line. So I've been drilling down on that issue.

For one thing, car sat in a barn (new one) for 12 years - so I wondered about mice nests above the cylinders from the day I bought the car. Yesterday with my scope I found, yes, they are there between the cylinders - at least between 2 & 4. I think I can get them out with a small vacuum through the spark plug holes in the top tins.....we'll see.

Due to total ignorance of 914's and VW engines, I know nothing of the air ducting system, but in the learning process, and thanks to anderssj , I find the whole flap/door system and its controls are missing. Gone.

So I can only assume that the PO removed them due to problems with overheating. Stupid move for sure. I have to correct that. I understand that move itself could cause overheating.

I dread pulling the carbs, intake manifolds, distributor and other stuff to get the top tins off.

Plan is to see if I can get the mouse stuff off the cylinders with a small vacuum, make sure all is clean with my scope. If successful, I'll then drive the car and see if it still gets too hot. If I can't get the debris removed with vacuum, I know I have to pull the top tins.

But I am told that not having the flap system itself could cause overheating. So I have to get that system installed and working.

Yes, I know the many potential causes of overheating like improper timing, plugs, etc. Timing good, plugs good - new. Valves adjusted by dealer about 1,500 miles ago.

Got a lot of work ahead - all when I wanted to have the car ready for the big PCA 9/14 914 Vintage Drive.

Any help and advice is of course, as always, appreciated.

GN

[Superhawk996]

I sort of wonder how this whole pull the flaps myth got started. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

My original engine suffered the same fate with PO pulling flaps. That engine really suffered because of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Guess the Germans were believed to have been putting unnecessary parts on cars despite 30 or more years of experience with air cooled engines by the time the 1st 914 hit the road.

[bretth]

I sort of wonder how this whole pull the flaps myth got started. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

My original engine suffered the same fate with PO pulling flaps. That engine really suffered because of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Guess the Germans were believed to have been putting unnecessary parts on cars despite 30 or more years of experience with air cooled engines by the time the 1st 914 hit the road.

I wonder if it is a type 1 cooling flap myth that came over to the type 4. Always heard about type 1 guys removing flaps for supposedly more air flow.

[porschetub]

Do it once and do it right,good chance to check everything,as mentioned the cooler will be dirty ,clean it inside and out,give the engine a good clean @ the same time that helps with cooling,replace all missing parts also,good luck.

[rhodyguy]

This is how it starts. 'While you're in there...'.

You're going to have to pull the intake manifolds to get the upper tin off.

[Spoke]

You need to drop the engine. You have enough stuff going on that trying to work on it with the engine in it's little cocoon is an absolute nightmare. Once you drop the engine you'll understand why everyone is saying to do it.

The worst part about dropping the engine is thinking about it. Once out, everything is at your fingertips. You can clean the critter nests out, degrease, repair/replace the cooling tins, repaint/powdercoat the tins. Also doing a valve adjustment on the engine out is a breeze.

I've dropped the engine twice in my 914 and both times by myself. The biggest pain in the ass as far as I'm concerned are the CV joints. When disconnecting them from the transmission now the actual CVs are open and that grease can get on everything.

If any of the heating tubes under the car are missing this would be a good time to install them. Are all the tubes in place? Do you have heat exchangers?

[ClayPerrine]

Drop the motor. It's easy.

Once its out, then I would suggest a new oil cooler and seals, plus reinstall the flaps.

[Gatornapper]

Guys all - I hear you, loud and clear.

Engine will not only be dropped and flaps added before it is put back, it will be rebuilt. Y'all misread me - no fear of dropping engine - have lift & everything I need to do it.

No compression in 3 & 4 - 60 psi. Was 90/100 4,000 miles ago when checked at local dealer. Only 100 & 102 in 1 and 2....same as dealer had.

Today I pulled out a cubic foot of mouse nest on the right on top of 3 & 4. Will post pic tomorrow since I have to upload it first to a pic website. Left side clean and open, right side now clean and open. Will try to scope oil cooler tomorrow, but right now it's a moot point.

Huge decision on engine rebuild though.....for my Weber 44's, increasing bore & stroke, adding cam? or for the original D-jet?

I'll address that on my other thread.

Thanks again everyone for all the help and great advice.

GN

[Superhawk996]

No compression in 3 & 4 - 60 psi. Was 90/100 4,000 miles ago when checked at local dealer. Only 100 & 102 in 1 and 2....same as dealer had.

Today I pulled out a cubic foot of mouse nest on the right on top of 3 & 4. Will post pic tomorrow since I have to upload it first to a pic website. Left side clean and open, right side now clean and open. Will try to scope oil cooler tomorrow, but right now it's a moot point.


GN

Oh Dude! So sorry to hear about cyl #3 & 4. Likely the overheating mouse nest lead to catastrophic sealing issue on that side.

Really makes me mad that the dealer wouldn't take a peek in there. Especially in an age of $100 bore scopes. Why is everyone now a days just trying to get by on the bare minimum?

I recently tore down GA000099 and yup, a huge mouse next in #1/2 and the oil cooler is nearly full restriction due to grease & cottonwood fluff.

Rebuilds aren't hard - just take your time.

With respect to the CV's getting grease everywhere . . . . put a 1 gallon Ziplock freezer bag (or better - two for durability) over them immediately upon disconnect. Tape it closed. Grease contamination and transfer to everything else is solved or greatly minimized.

Do not pull the rear axle stub and roll the vehicle or the wheel bearings will be destroyed. Bungee works to keep axles from flopping around if you need to roll with CV's in place.