^^^

If you're set on not dropping the engine, Step 1 is remove the engine cover. Step 2, remove the battery. Step 3, spray a good penatrent on every exposed fastener you can see. Now raise the car. Bear in mind you're going to be bent over the raised car with your head in the engine compartment contorted in the weirdest positions you can imagine. How long could you hold that pose? Double or triple time on reassembly. You'll figure out about the drop 1/2 way thru the ordeal. When a few tin screws shear off, screw heads all chewed up or are just plain stuck you'll be fuming.

Engine + trans drop is less than an hour.
You don't need a rack for it either, just two jackstands and a dolly.

Trust me (and the rest posting here) dropping the engine/trans is the way to go.

Everything else will make you hate your life.

Guys -

Got the message loud and clear.

"Any smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others....."

I prefer to be the latter.

I have a 10k lb. lift and a Harbor Freight motorcycle lift and was planning on dropping the engine onto it using blocking to support each corner. Can't I do that instead of buying the Tangerine plate?

What adds to the validity of what you all are saying is the availability of videos to show how it's done. I love these. I believe in apprenticeship learning - saves tons of mistakes.

Videos provide part 2 of this great Chinese proverb:

"I hear - I forget. I see - I remember. I do - I understand."

And we all know doing something the 2nd time takes half as long as the first. And the 3rd time half as long as the 2nd.........

Guys - I'm 74, and been wrenching since I was 15. And still love it. I hear you all.

GN

PS: Yes, I'm spoiled with a dream shop and garage. But it's been a long time coming.
Always worked on cars on gravel until I was 37; didn't own a home and even have a garage until I was 55 and hand-built my log home in the woods; designed & build my dream garage - it HAD to have a lift! - with my own hands (also a General and Electrical Contractor) when I was 68. So there is a real sense in which I am not spoiled. But I am blessed by God.

Yes, it can be done. I have done it. But it is a b1tch putting the fan shroud back on the front of the motor without screwing up the cooling flaps.

It is much easier to drop the motor and trans out of the car. If you have a lift, it is even easier. Just unhook all the stuff on top, raise it up, unhook everything but the motor mounts on the bottom. Lower the car down and place jack stands under each end of the crossbar, and one under the rear of the trans. Then unbolt the mounts, and lift the car off the engine and trans.

Putting it back is just as easy. If you moved the motor, use a couple of plumb bobs to align the crossbar with the mounts in the frame, then carefully lower the car onto the motor. Watch the CV joints and axles, they have a tendency to hang up on the trans when installing the motor.

Good luck.

Cleaning the engine compartment is quick and easy with the engine out. There's a few other this and that too.

Clay -

Thanks - I'm sold. Think the motorcycle lift table is best tho - puts the engine at a perfect working height, and if need be, allows me to move it - tho I won't plan on doing that due to alignment issues.

Next question guys: Why should I drop the engine and NOT do a top-end rebuild, with new C&P's, maybe renewed heads?

Thinking of the 2056 upgrade - would love advice on best sources for this.......or should I start a new thread for this?

GN

The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......

Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....

How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......

GN

You may find out when you pull the tin. Wouldn't be surprised to find a mouse house or clogged oil cooler.

Also who's to say he was paying attention and didn't overheat it or the previously mentioned girlfriend? Maybe he only drove it a few miles to Dairy Queen for an ice cream only once a year. Who really knows?

That is why I make it a personal principle to tear down every engine as if it was a core.

Heck I got my original engine (the one without flaps) running before I tore the car apart but seriously had no idea of how much rust and muck was sitting in the sump. No idea that the crank was already 0.010" undersize and scored. It would have run for a while but would have eventually destroyed itself at the most inopportune time.

These cars are now 40 - 50 years old and should be assessed as such . . . probably worn out.

Had I pulled the engine apart and found it to be pristine, no big deal. Fresh gaskets and it would have gone back together. Ah . . . if only that had been the case.

SH -

Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.

Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....

GN

Here in the South (Atlanta) I have built several High Performance TY4 engines, I always install the Flaps. They are getting hard to find so I have done some stock engines with a riveted in hand made oil cooler flap. Never a problem , but you MUST direct air over the oil cooler. The only way I know how to do this is to copy a stock flapper door and reproduce the shape and rivet it to the stock #4 tin . AL

Al - totally understand - flaps ON THE WAY from another member - so I'm good!

Thanks!

GN

Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.

Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.

With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.

Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.

I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.

Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.

I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.

SH -

Only makes sense, I agree - especially since I did not know about the cam load.

I do know this: Original Owner's Manual shows car was delivered on 1/27/76, and has dealer service stamped showing 13,971 miles on 1/25/1977 in Buena Park, CA.

I also have Porsche dealer invoice showing 56,496 on 8/31/2001. Another showing 58,537 on 11/29/2002.

That's 44,500 miles in 25+ years, or only 1,700 miles/year. Extremely low UNLESS the car sat for a number of years. Which is also not unusual for these cars.

Car indicated 60,600 on 9/22/17 when I purchased it and had been sitting in one place in my friends barn for 12 years. It sat in my garage for almost 2 years. 14 total recent years, zero miles. So between '01 and '06 it was driven 4k miles in the last full year it was driven.

Wear on the car is commensurate with a 60k car. Interior is very nice, so are pedals.

But as you say, who knows? Best to check all when engine is out.

If cam is worn, I'm going with a cam for the Weber 44's.

GN

Al,

I have lots of sets of the flaps.

Clay

You may indeed be correct that it is a true 60K car then. That is awesome. So many have zero records - your're well ahead in that regard.

when you do the top end, pull the lifters out - you can probably use a borescope to get a good look at the cam lobes. If they are hollowed out at the center where the lifter paths overlap, you'll need a cam. If not, you could use that to justify not splitting the case.

One thing to keep in mind - cars of this era were not designed to life cycles of 150K miles like they are today. Probably more like an optimistic 100K at best.

If you plan to drive daily (or hard)- know that you may already be 6/10 worn.

In theory, a plain bearing has a near infinite life as long as oil is kept clean and constant oil pressure is maintained. The main problem is that you have no flaps, and have already experienced overheating yourself. This greatly thinned oil viscosity and dropped oil pressure and will have taken some unknown % bearing life away. It is always a bit hard to know if oil was kept clean but again with some records you at least have some insight on early life maintenance.

The main thing I'm suspicious of is why someone would bother to get in there and ONLY remove the flaps. The fact that it has Webers says someones been mucking around somewhere in that 60K miles for some reason. Maybe it was running lean and/or hot and some shade tree pulled FI for Webers and though pulling the flaps would help. Not being overly critical here - I myself pulled FI on my original car for Webers (young and dumb, didn't understand FI yet).

In my opinion, it is all the unknowns that would make me split the case regardless. Then I KNOW what I have . . . but I'm OCD that way.

I'll post up a picture later tonight of GA000099 stock cam and the lobe wear so that you know what you're looking for. Get in touch with Clay -- per previous post he has flaps.

I have the full and true story on the FI-Weber conversion.....confirmed by the local Porsche dealer and I have the original dealer record of the conversion.

ECU was bad and a working one could not be found. Owner who raced 911's did his research and purchased a complete Weber 44 kit with proper jetting for the IV 2.0. He had the dealer do the conversion - so it was done right at 58,537 miles on 11/29/2002.

They completely re-tuned the car for the Weber's and stated in the service sheet that it was running well. The bill was large!

The head of the service dept. has been there for eons, and remembers every detail about this car being serviced there - as they don't service many 914's. I was amazed at all he told me about the car. He also said, "It's a nice one...." Remembered low compression in #3, and occasional problems with synchronizer in 3rd gear!

As I've been a customer for many years (on my 2nd Cayman), he was very happy to tell me all about my car.

How cool is that?

GN

Totally remember all cars were good for 100k mis. in those days. Designed obsolescence.

My first new car was a '68 Bullitt Mustang (Sept. '68 - '69's had just been released - 1 month before the movie came out - an incredible story as I was 23 with NO money!) and I put 100k mis. on it in 3 years and even tho I maintained it well - everything was shot then.

I'll split the engine and put in a good cam for the Webers - only makes sense. Check all bearings.

Should I start a new thread asking for guidance on where to get C's & P's and cam?

GN

Consider getting 96mm pistons and have your cylinders bored to fit them...JE forged if you're going to hammer on it...

John -

Like here:

https://aapistons.com/collections/piston-se...-top-piston-set

Great idea - how to increase compression ratio? Don't see different sets......with smaller compression height......

GN

Consider getting 96mm pistons and have your cylinders bored to fit them...JE forged if you're going to hammer on it...
[/quote]

John -

Does the bore for the 96mm pistons give you 2056cc?

Thanks,

GN

Perfect. I have the scope - will do this for sure, and that will determine what I do.

If cam looks good, and I can get another 30k out of engine before going inside, I'll just do the top end.

Plan is coming together. My winter project.

Thanks.......

GN


"when you do the top end, pull the lifters out - you can probably use a borescope to get a good look at the cam lobes. If they are hollowed out at the center where the lifter paths overlap, you'll need a cam. If not, you could use that to justify not splitting the case. "

I just pulled the tin off an engine that appeared to have no cooling flaps. The thermostat and crossbar were removed. I tried to pull the shroud off before removing the cylinder tin but it hung up on the passenger side. I was able to look inside and could see that the oil cooler flap was in place, riveted down at the back. That's the warm position, which directs some of the air to the cooler. This engine runs quite hot so I was expecting no flap at all.
Owner has documented 250F in 90+ degree weather climbing hills at 80 mph.
Next step is to install one of my remote oil cooler kits so he can run his AC without overheating the engine.

How was the vane on dr side positioned?

Chris -

THANK YOU FOR THIS POST! VERY educational.

Anyone else ever seen this mod before?

So, you were attempting to access the oil cooler and install the flaps and thermostat without removing the engine? And you are a professional 914 mechanic, right?

But you could not get the front shroud off.....did you get the right front tin off?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand where I've never been before.....and the Haynes manual is as clear as mud.......

Is it your opinion that the riveted flap was not far enough in the "hot" position, and that's why the engine is overheating?

What is a proper engine temp on a 90 degree day climbing hills at 80mph?????? 230? 235? I'm sure it is above 220........

I assume your remote cooler, as all I've seen so far, is located up front below the bumper.....correct?

I think that's enough questions for one post......

GN

No, I have the engine out of the car. I wouldn't attempt what I am doing with the engine installed.
I thought I could get the shroud out of the way without pulling the cylinder tin off first. However a previous owner riveted the flap in place while the top tin was off. There's no driver side flap since it's attached to the missing crossbar.
Once I got the right cylinder tin out of the way everything went smoothly.

I'm not re-installing any stock parts. I'm modifying the oil cooling system by replacing the factory oil cooler with my custom made thermostat that has ports for a remote cooler. The cooler is mounted below the rear trunk and has a fan to pull air up through the cooler. A block-off plate replaces the flap on the passenger side so no air can escape from where the stock cooler used to be.

I think oil temps of 250 are not uncommon for a stock 2L being driven hard. I would prefer to see it peak no higher than 225.

Chris -

Thank you. I've never seen your oil cooler idea, only the front cooler ones. But I have wondered myself why a rear mounted cooler with a fan could not be used. Sounds like a great design, especially since you aren't adding your cooler to the stock one but replacing it.

I'd love to hear your reasons for not using both - I'm sure they are solid and sound.

Have you patented your design? I'd love to do the same on mine - but you are way to far from me to do my work.

Agree on the oil temp.....you confirmed my thoughts on the stock design......

Glad I'm running synthetic.....have been on all my vehicles since 1977....never an engine failure since then, and we drive all out vehicles until they are worth almost nothing....and die of other major mechanical issues.

GN

I think the stock cooler is terribly inefficient where it is right up against the block essentially, and the stock oil circuitry has oil flow thru the cooler based on pressure not temperature. High oil pressure = no oil moving in the cooler.

Nothing patentable in my design, just good use of available components combined with some custom made parts to complete the assembly. The most significant of the custom made parts is the oil thermostat which mounts on the engine where the cooler used to be. That ensures the oil cooler has little to no flow until the oil is 180F.
My goal with the kit is to create something that works well and most any shade tree mechanic can install. I'm just learning about the complexities of installing this in a car with stock heat exchangers right now. My early efforts were aimed at modified engines running race headers.

Be careful with synthetic oil. A high ZDDP content is essential for minimizing lifter/cam wear.

Thanks, Chris.

"Be careful with synthetic oil. A high ZDDP content is essential for minimizing lifter/cam wear."

And here I've preached this to owners of old Triumph (and other makes) motorcycles for years - but had not applied it to the '76 VW engine. Of course!

Back to the Brad Penn I run in my old Triumph's........partial synthetic......plenty of ZDDP....

"High oil pressure = no oil moving in the cooler..." TOTALLY do not understand this one - the higher the pressure, the more the oil should flow in volume!

Does your system have a fail-safe mode if your thermostat regulating the flow fails?

Thank,

GN

The stock pressure relief valve in a Type 4 engine also incorporates a cooler bypass circuit.
When pressure is high most of the oil goes around the cooler, not through it.
Its essentially a thermostat to help with warm up, but also allows very high oil temperatures during hard driving. I make a pressure valve insert which defeats the bypass, forcing the oil thru the cooler at all times.

My thermostat is internally identical to the remote thermostats that are commonly used in external cooler plumbing. There is no fail-safe. These thermostats use oil temperature, not pressure, to open the valve. When the oil is hot it all goes thru the cooler.

Cool! Great design...

[/quote]
The stock pressure relief valve in a Type 4 engine also incorporates a cooler bypass circuit.
When pressure is high most of the oil goes around the cooler, not through it.
Its essentially a thermostat to help with warm up, but also allows very high oil temperatures during hard driving. I make a pressure valve insert which defeats the bypass, forcing the oil thru the cooler at all times.

My thermostat is internally identical to the remote thermostats that are commonly used in external cooler plumbing. There is no fail-safe. These thermostats use oil temperature, not pressure, to open the valve. When the oil is hot it all goes thru the cooler.
[/quote]

I’ll defer to Chris on this for racing application. Racing is very different than street use.

Keep in mind, hot oil is usually not high pressure oil. Oil thins, bearing clearances open up, etc.

Forcing all oil though cooler especially cold, high pressure oil risks blowing out the simple rubber grommets that seal the cooler to the case.

Forgive me for saying this but you seem determined to re-engineer the system. A properly built, and tuned stock (or 2056) motor running a thermostat and cooling flaps should not be overheating, end of story.

Delaying warm up of an engine can be nearly as bad as the overheating with respect to engine longevity.

I think the stock pressure relief is bypassing the cooler at less than 40psi.

That's false. The cooler sees full oil pressure at all times. It just gets little to no flow under some conditions.

That depends on what you mean by "overheating". I believe the designers had no problem with a stock 2L engine reaching 250F or higher oil temp. A 2056 is going to get even hotter. I know I don't want my oil that hot.
Remember, the engine was designed for single weight dino oil and we're typically using mult-viscosity semi-synthetic oils. The temp/viscosity characteristics are quite different.

You know what they say about aircooled engines - when they're running they're overheating.
I've never had a problem with one not getting up to operating temperature quickly enough.

Just want to be clear my intent isn’t to start a pissing contest but rather to reiterate that these engines were designed to work in a certain operational envelope and they do that well as designed.

If you do or have any of the following:
Lug engines on hills or on flat ground
Race under high loads and high RPMs with high rate valve springs to support those RPMs
Have blocked Cooling fins or oil cooler fins
Drive in 100F+ weather with Dealer added A/C
Improper fuel ratios
Improper engine timing
Disabled cooling flaps

You will encounter some sort of temperature issues. Feel free to re-engineer as you see fit to suit the need. I’m a live and let live guy! Have fun with it!

Otherwise a street driven vehicle in normal temperatures ought not be overheating in the first place. Although an engine temp of 180F - 200F is not abnormal for water pumpers, it is on the low end for air cooled engines. Don’t freak out at 225 oil temp. Change often but don’t freak out.