Major Cooling System issues, Flap system removed by PO Options

[Gatornapper]

Need the Brain Trust help again - big time.

Up to now, nothing I've faced in getting this sweet 14 running and back on the road has been major or disheartening. Lots of new stuff, running pretty good but not perfect, etc. That just changed.

Ever since getting the engine running a few months ago, I was concerned that it took a long time to warm up. My first 1 hour + drive was last week - and temps got too high for my comfort - about 1/4" from red line. So I've been drilling down on that issue.

For one thing, car sat in a barn (new one) for 12 years - so I wondered about mice nests above the cylinders from the day I bought the car. Yesterday with my scope I found, yes, they are there between the cylinders - at least between 2 & 4. I think I can get them out with a small vacuum through the spark plug holes in the top tins.....we'll see.

Due to total ignorance of 914's and VW engines, I know nothing of the air ducting system, but in the learning process, and thanks to anderssj , I find the whole flap/door system and its controls are missing. Gone.

So I can only assume that the PO removed them due to problems with overheating. Stupid move for sure. I have to correct that. I understand that move itself could cause overheating.

I dread pulling the carbs, intake manifolds, distributor and other stuff to get the top tins off.

Plan is to see if I can get the mouse stuff off the cylinders with a small vacuum, make sure all is clean with my scope. If successful, I'll then drive the car and see if it still gets too hot. If I can't get the debris removed with vacuum, I know I have to pull the top tins.

But I am told that not having the flap system itself could cause overheating. So I have to get that system installed and working.

Yes, I know the many potential causes of overheating like improper timing, plugs, etc. Timing good, plugs good - new. Valves adjusted by dealer about 1,500 miles ago.

Got a lot of work ahead - all when I wanted to have the car ready for the big PCA 9/14 914 Vintage Drive.

Any help and advice is of course, as always, appreciated.

GN

[Gatornapper]

The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......

Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....

How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......

GN

[Superhawk996]

The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......

Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....

How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......

GN

You may find out when you pull the tin. Wouldn't be surprised to find a mouse house or clogged oil cooler.

Also who's to say he was paying attention and didn't overheat it or the previously mentioned girlfriend? Maybe he only drove it a few miles to Dairy Queen for an ice cream only once a year. Who really knows?

That is why I make it a personal principle to tear down every engine as if it was a core.

Heck I got my original engine (the one without flaps) running before I tore the car apart but seriously had no idea of how much rust and muck was sitting in the sump. No idea that the crank was already 0.010" undersize and scored. It would have run for a while but would have eventually destroyed itself at the most inopportune time.

These cars are now 40 - 50 years old and should be assessed as such . . . probably worn out.

Had I pulled the engine apart and found it to be pristine, no big deal. Fresh gaskets and it would have gone back together. Ah . . . if only that had been the case.

[Gatornapper]

SH -

Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.

Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....

GN

The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......

Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....

How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......

GN

You may find out when you pull the tin. Wouldn't be surprised to find a mouse house or clogged oil cooler.

Also who's to say he was paying attention and didn't overheat it or the previously mentioned girlfriend? Maybe he only drove it a few miles to Dairy Queen for an ice cream only once a year. Who really knows?

That is why I make it a personal principle to tear down every engine as if it was a core.

Heck I got my original engine (the one without flaps) running before I tore the car apart but seriously had no idea of how much rust and muck was sitting in the sump. No idea that the crank was already 0.010" undersize and scored. It would have run for a while but would have eventually destroyed itself at the most inopportune time.

These cars are now 40 - 50 years old and should be assessed as such . . . probably worn out.

Had I pulled the engine apart and found it to be pristine, no big deal. Fresh gaskets and it would have gone back together. Ah . . . if only that had been the case.

[Superhawk996]

SH -

Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.

Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....

Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.

Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.

With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.

Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.

I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.

Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.

I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.

[Gatornapper]

SH -

Only makes sense, I agree - especially since I did not know about the cam load.

I do know this: Original Owner's Manual shows car was delivered on 1/27/76, and has dealer service stamped showing 13,971 miles on 1/25/1977 in Buena Park, CA.

I also have Porsche dealer invoice showing 56,496 on 8/31/2001. Another showing 58,537 on 11/29/2002.

That's 44,500 miles in 25+ years, or only 1,700 miles/year. Extremely low UNLESS the car sat for a number of years. Which is also not unusual for these cars.

Car indicated 60,600 on 9/22/17 when I purchased it and had been sitting in one place in my friends barn for 12 years. It sat in my garage for almost 2 years. 14 total recent years, zero miles. So between '01 and '06 it was driven 4k miles in the last full year it was driven.

Wear on the car is commensurate with a 60k car. Interior is very nice, so are pedals.

But as you say, who knows? Best to check all when engine is out.

If cam is worn, I'm going with a cam for the Weber 44's.

GN

SH -

Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.

Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....

Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.

Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.

With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.

Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.

I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.

Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.

I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.

[Superhawk996]

SH -

Only makes sense, I agree - especially since I did not know about the cam load.

I do know this: Original Owner's Manual shows car was delivered on 1/27/76, and has dealer service stamped showing 13,971 miles on 1/25/1977 in Buena Park, CA.

I also have Porsche dealer invoice showing 56,496 on 8/31/2001. Another showing 58,537 on 11/29/2002.

That's 44,500 miles in 25+ years, or only 1,700 miles/year. Extremely low UNLESS the car sat for a number of years. Which is also not unusual for these cars.

Car indicated 60,600 on 9/22/17 when I purchased it and had been sitting in one place in my friends barn for 12 years. It sat in my garage for almost 2 years. 14 total recent years, zero miles. So between '01 and '06 it was driven 4k miles in the last full year it was driven.

Wear on the car is commensurate with a 60k car. Interior is very nice, so are pedals.

But as you say, who knows? Best to check all when engine is out.

If cam is worn, I'm going with a cam for the Weber 44's.

GN

SH -

Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.

Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....

Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.

Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.

With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.

Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.

I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.

Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.

I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.

You may indeed be correct that it is a true 60K car then. That is awesome. So many have zero records - your're well ahead in that regard.

when you do the top end, pull the lifters out - you can probably use a borescope to get a good look at the cam lobes. If they are hollowed out at the center where the lifter paths overlap, you'll need a cam. If not, you could use that to justify not splitting the case.

One thing to keep in mind - cars of this era were not designed to life cycles of 150K miles like they are today. Probably more like an optimistic 100K at best.

If you plan to drive daily (or hard)- know that you may already be 6/10 worn.

In theory, a plain bearing has a near infinite life as long as oil is kept clean and constant oil pressure is maintained. The main problem is that you have no flaps, and have already experienced overheating yourself. This greatly thinned oil viscosity and dropped oil pressure and will have taken some unknown % bearing life away. It is always a bit hard to know if oil was kept clean but again with some records you at least have some insight on early life maintenance.

The main thing I'm suspicious of is why someone would bother to get in there and ONLY remove the flaps. The fact that it has Webers says someones been mucking around somewhere in that 60K miles for some reason. Maybe it was running lean and/or hot and some shade tree pulled FI for Webers and though pulling the flaps would help. Not being overly critical here - I myself pulled FI on my original car for Webers (young and dumb, didn't understand FI yet).

In my opinion, it is all the unknowns that would make me split the case regardless. Then I KNOW what I have . . . but I'm OCD that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I'll post up a picture later tonight of GA000099 stock cam and the lobe wear so that you know what you're looking for. Get in touch with Clay -- per previous post he has flaps.

[Gatornapper]

Perfect. I have the scope - will do this for sure, and that will determine what I do.

If cam looks good, and I can get another 30k out of engine before going inside, I'll just do the top end.

Plan is coming together. My winter project.

Thanks.......

GN


"when you do the top end, pull the lifters out - you can probably use a borescope to get a good look at the cam lobes. If they are hollowed out at the center where the lifter paths overlap, you'll need a cam. If not, you could use that to justify not splitting the case. "