Factory Six Race 914, Up for auction |
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Factory Six Race 914, Up for auction |
ClayPerrine |
Jun 2 2021, 06:23 AM
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#1
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Life's been good to me so far..... Group: Admin Posts: 15,512 Joined: 11-September 03 From: Hurst, TX. Member No.: 1,143 Region Association: NineFourteenerVille |
This factory six race car is up for auction on PCA Market.
https://www.pcarmarket.com/auction/1970-por...4-6-race-car-1/ Looks to be a nicely done car. No affiliation, just thought I would share. Clay |
rick 918-S |
Jun 3 2021, 05:48 AM
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#2
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,485 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region |
What if your car is a 6 and the right corner is crushed? You need to replace the wheelhouse. Is it ok to the purest here to continue to call the car a 6 or does that erase the car as 6 and it becomes nothing of value? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
The fact is there is only 3100ist factory 6 cars built. Over the years they were wrecked and rusted. If a guy owns a factory 6 and chooses to restore it in a manor using "Like - Kind - and Quality" parts how does it matter how many parts are needed. It is still a restoration or repair of a rightfully owed factory 6. How you choose to value it personally does not change the fact that when a limited production car becomes rare enough and either rusted or damaged enough (or both) it become worth the investment to repair the car. Sometimes it takes a lot of parts, sometimes it doesn't. |
Superhawk996 |
Jun 3 2021, 06:01 AM
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#3
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,891 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
What if your car is a 6 and the right corner is crushed? You need to replace the wheelhouse. Is it ok to the purest here to continue to call the car a 6 or does that erase the car as. 6 and it becomes nothing of value? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I don't think so. Still has value as /6. What would probably happen under Michigan state law would be that the vehicle probably would get an assembly title or potentially a new VIN assigned after that . . . if the letter of the law were followed. I'm sure there are plenty of shady people that would also just cut out the wheelhouse VIN and paste it into the new wheelhouse too - which would be illegal. A repair shop or dealer that got caught doing this would likely lose their licesnse. But given that /6 door jamb compliance sticker would still be in place, along with Karman tag, combined with window VIN tag, and maybe a slightly crushed & crumpled /6 headlamp tag, I would suspect next potential owner would have enough of the story to accept what had happened. And of course, transparency about the accident and subseqent repair would be expected right? Value of the /6 could then be assessed on merits of what was left and how the work was done. Still a /6, but, no longer "original". |
rick 918-S |
Jun 4 2021, 09:54 AM
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#4
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,485 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region |
What if your car is a 6 and the right corner is crushed? You need to replace the wheelhouse. Is it ok to the purest here to continue to call the car a 6 or does that erase the car as. 6 and it becomes nothing of value? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I don't think so. Still has value as /6. What would probably happen under Michigan state law would be that the vehicle probably would get an assembly title or potentially a new VIN assigned after that . . . if the letter of the law were followed. I'm sure there are plenty of shady people that would also just cut out the wheelhouse VIN and paste it into the new wheelhouse too - which would be illegal. A repair shop or dealer that got caught doing this would likely lose their licesnse. But given that /6 door jamb compliance sticker would still be in place, along with Karman tag, combined with window VIN tag, and maybe a slightly crushed & crumpled /6 headlamp tag, I would suspect next potential owner would have enough of the story to accept what had happened. And of course, transparency about the accident and subseqent repair would be expected right? Value of the /6 could then be assessed on merits of what was left and how the work was done. Still a /6, but, no longer "original". I have done lots of late model builders. The state only gets involved if insurance deems the vehicle a total loss. Otherwise they have no control over old cars undergoing restoration. these discussions always seem to come down to what the state laws are. But the state does not control what type of a repair a shop does for a restoration. There is no recertification process or structural engineer that checks to see if the integrity of the chassis was restored. There is no state law that governs what you do to repair a car with parts from another car in the restoration business. There is if you are doing a late model builder. You need all the receipts and the car is inspected before a stamped title is issued. the car in many states carries the rebuilt stamp for it's entire existence until the end of it's useable life. Then the issue arises. What if a late model Porsche was rebuilt. Then over time the value of the car far exceeded what it was worth at the time it was deemed a total loss by it's market value vs the cost to repair? Should the stamp be removed? Based on current value it would never have received the rebuilder stamp. |
Superhawk996 |
Jun 4 2021, 10:40 AM
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#5
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,891 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
There is no state law that governs what you do to repair a car with parts from another car in the restoration business. I beg to differ. VIN swapping is illegal in Michigan and many other states. VIN swapping is not a "repair". There are laws that govern when a VIN is given a Salvage title, an Assembly title, or a clean, clear, normal title. I may be particulary sensitive to this topic because I was once caught up in a used car sale of a 914/6 that turned out to be a VIN swap that was not disclosed. I was fortunate in getting the dealer to take it back about 1 hour after the sale. I could not determine if the VIN was swapped into a /4 or whether it had been swapped between two /6's. Someone went out of their way to try to hide the VIN swap. Title was never transfered to me and I can only wish I still had VIN detail on that car. Hopefully it has been wrecked or rotted by now. VIN swaps happen, and when they happen, they are fraudulent. |
rick 918-S |
Jun 4 2021, 11:13 AM
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#6
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,485 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region |
There is no state law that governs what you do to repair a car with parts from another car in the restoration business. I beg to differ. VIN swapping is illegal in Michigan and many other states. VIN swapping is not a "repair". There are laws that govern when a VIN is given a Salvage title, an Assembly title, or a clean, clear, normal title. I may be particulary sensitive to this topic because I was once caught up in a used car sale of a 914/6 that turned out to be a VIN swap that was not disclosed. I was fortunate in getting the dealer to take it back about 1 hour after the sale. I could not determine if the VIN was swapped into a /4 or whether it had been swapped between two /6's. Someone went out of their way to try to hide the VIN swap. Title was never transfered to me and I can only wish I still had VIN detail on that car. Hopefully it has been wrecked or rotted by now. VIN swaps happen, and when they happen, they are fraudulent. You called it a swap. Others may call it a restoration of a rare car. How much of the original car needs to be retained before you would consider it a fraud? |
SirAndy |
Jun 4 2021, 01:59 PM
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#7
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,675 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
You called it a swap. Others may call it a restoration of a rare car. How much of the original car needs to be retained before you would consider it a fraud? It doesn't matter what "people call it". There's always an agenda, and it usually is biased towards benefiting the seller. For me the difference is pretty clear: - Take a rusty/crashed tub and replace as many parts as needed = OK - Take a nice tub and cut out the VIN tag and weld in another VIN tag = Fraud To me there is NO gray area here, no matter how much some would like there to be (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) PS: Not talking about you personally here Rick, just trying to make a point |
wonkipop |
Jun 4 2021, 04:08 PM
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#8
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,397 Joined: 6-May 20 From: north antarctica Member No.: 24,231 Region Association: NineFourteenerVille |
You called it a swap. Others may call it a restoration of a rare car. How much of the original car needs to be retained before you would consider it a fraud? It doesn't matter what "people call it". There's always an agenda, and it usually is biased towards benefiting the seller. For me the difference is pretty clear: - Take a rusty/crashed tub and replace as many parts as needed = OK - Take a nice tub and cut out the VIN tag and weld in another VIN tag = Fraud To me there is NO gray area here, no matter how much some would like there to be (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) PS: Not talking about you personally here Rick, just trying to make a point agree in regard to the car for sale. the tub should have retained its 4 vin. the mechanical parts from the 6 installed. the vin tags from the terminal 6 shell put in an envelope. the car driven and used for its intended purpose, going fast on a track. when sold all there for what it is. then it would actually be thesius's ship (see GregAmy post above). thats what thesius's ship is, or at least what my training told me it was. it would be what it actually is - rather than having to be informed what it is. the same argument as thesius's ship goes for japanese temples which are famously reconstructed entirely at set intervals in time. people forget the J don't think the reconstructed temple is the same temple. they think its a reconstruction or new version of the same idea. its the idea that stays eternal, not the object. we in the west have a more convoluted sense of where the original is. we think its in the object, not the idea. we could be wrong? but the problem for the 914/6, is it is now a "art" object with value as a commodity. arbiters of value have stepped in. experts etc. in that world, the above car is a fake, a fraud, a reconstruction, etc et al. period. the seller is not calling it the real thing. he is calling it the car to go out and do some flogging in. but to do that, he has had to make a "fake". kind of paradoxical? be interesting to know if he had to disclose that to racing authorities, its all a bit absurd? you would never be able to put this car on the road in australia. transferring vins is a crime. the cops and registration authorities don't split hairs about what percentage of the chassis has been retained. like all authorities, they don't argue. by disclosing the information the seller has, in order to be honest, said information would prohibit the registration of the car for road use. and if you the buyer, knowing this information didn't disclose it at time of road registration, the crime would transfer to you. if you get caught, you probably lose the car, it gets seized, crushed etc. you get charged etc. at best its off the road forever on the record. its a catch-22. but take it to a race track only and use it, or keep it in a cupboard, no problem, no one cares so long as its not stolen. thank god i am poor and own a four. there is no $ motivation or technical racing reason to transfer a vin number on a 4. ............maybe in the future people might start faking/remaking 73/74 2.0s? who knows. so long as they are still around getting driven (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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