Aftermarket FI options for Type 4 motors 2056 or larger, Who here has gone this route and is it worth it? What options do we have? Options

[DRPHIL914]

i started looking into this 2 years ago when i was planning my rebuild motor after the drpped valve seat on the OEM motor.
I ended up building a nice 2056 with increased compression, brand new heads, counter balanced crank and of course the cam is performance minded as well.
to start i installed the d-jet and later last year i added a 50mm bored out stock throttle body from Tangerine/Chris Foley. Yes this helped a great deal, but we are still limited due to the d-jet and the MPS. So there are a few people out there that make ITB( independant throttle body) that could be used.
One is Jenvey, and i see that PMB is carrying those. It looks ike they are mated to what ever IDF intake manifold you choose. there are 40, 45, 48 options. mated with 350cc injectors.
I am wondering other than the CB performance stuff that has been available for a while, others have come to the table, who here has played around with this ? over the years ive read a lot on others using the megasquirt and micro etc and it seemd they were very difficult to tune and set up with lots of problems, trial and error.

I am looking for advice on what to stay away from and what are the pitfalls and mistakes we can avoid before jumping into this.

Look forward to some input, thanks!!

Phil

[Superhawk996]

What is with with the love of TBI?

Sure dual TBI on custom manifolds would be better than running a singular TBI through stock 914 manifolds.

But what have you gained?

Now you have a linkage that needs to be synchronized. Just like dual carbs. Just like dual ITB’s running multi port injection.

Now maybe need two TBI ECUs to manage two TBI’s? Now you have all the disadvantages of what has basically become an ITB setup with its issues of low and unstable vacuum signal to run a MAP sensor off of.

Dual TBI would need custom intake manifolds. At least current T4 ITB - multiport setup uses commercially available manifolds from Weber / Dellorto setup.

TBI is not some sort of magical fuel injection system that is inherently easier to tune than a multi port setup.

Am I missing something? I promise I don’t hate TBI but it is inferior to multi port injection. TBI was an emissions band-aid for a short window of time in automotive history. I’m not seeing how it makes life any easier when installed on a 914.

[mihai914]

What is with with the love of TBI?

Sure dual TBI on custom manifolds would be better than running a singular TBI through stock 914 manifolds.

But what have you gained?

Now you have a linkage that needs to be synchronized. Just like dual carbs. Just like dual ITB’s running multi port injection.

Now maybe need two TBI ECUs to manage two TBI’s? Now you have all the disadvantages of what has basically become an ITB setup with its issues of low and unstable vacuum signal to run a MAP sensor off of.

Dual TBI would need custom intake manifolds. At least current T4 ITB - multiport setup uses commercially available manifolds from Weber / Dellorto setup.

TBI is not some sort of magical fuel injection system that is inherently easier to tune than a multi port setup.

Am I missing something? I promise I don’t hate TBI but it is inferior to multi port injection. TBI was an emissions band-aid for a short window of time in automotive history. I’m not seeing how it makes life any easier when installed on a 914.

I don't think it's a love of TBI necessarily, it's convenience and ease of execution. If you look at our use of technology in general, it's rarely the best technology available that prevails in the mass market.

Sniper EFI, FiTEch and all other similar products are appealing because they self tune, are mostly self-contained, are bolt-on in their specific applications and are not much more expensive vs. a equivalent performance carburetor.

I would be very surprised that racing teams, of all kinds, would use the above mentioned products, but for the common backyard mechanic, it does the job well.

Personally, when I look at the BugShop's offer, the kit looks well put together, but then you have to specify if you want help with tuning. I understand that the vendor can not sell a one for all type of system, and that he can't be profitable if he were to support every customer for free. It's just that at some point, you want to take something out of the box, bolt it to the car and go driving.

As for a SniperEFI type of thing, I get a nice screen and probably get to play with just enough parameters for my level of knowledge.

[JamesM]

Sniper EFI, FiTEch and all other similar products are appealing because they self tune, are mostly self-contained, are bolt-on in their specific applications and are not much more expensive vs. a equivalent performance carburetor.

I would be very surprised that racing teams, of all kinds, would use the above mentioned products, but for the common backyard mechanic, it does the job well.

Using the term "Self Tune" is along the lines of saying Teslas can "Self Drive" In fact I would probably say of the two that "Self Driving" requires a lot less human interaction.

Its a great sales pitch, but still requires setup and only works as well as the operator directing it.

[Superhawk996]

Using the term "Self Tune" is along the lines of saying Teslas can "Self Drive"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I get the appeal of self tune but it’s not there yet. Just go look at the number of people having issues with Sniper running too rich, stalling, having EMI type issues, etc. I get that having the ECU in the TBi package is nice - no dispute there. Sniper still needs a good vacuum signal to run and engine temp signal.

TunerStudio for MegaSquirt offers an “auto tune” functionality that will greatly help in tuning but it still isn’t full auto tuning.

The reality of EFI is that somehow, you are going to have to learn to “tune” what you have. No different than learning to tune carbs properly.

Even with all the power of AI and latest processors in ECU’s the OEM’s still employ calibration engineers to do the final tuning and much of it is done on road to get production calibrations.

Expecting a magic “self tune” capability out of a $1k product is going to leave you disappointed. Probably even more so when trying to apply it to the quirks of air cooled engines that run hotter than water pumpers and prefer to run on the rich side to keep the heads cool enough to not drop valve seats.

[mihai914]

Using the term "Self Tune" is along the lines of saying Teslas can "Self Drive"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I get the appeal of self tune but it’s not there yet. Just go look at the number of people having issues with Sniper running too rich, stalling, having EMI type issues, etc. I get that having the ECU in the TBi package is nice - no dispute there. Sniper still needs a good vacuum signal to run and engine temp signal.

TunerStudio for MegaSquirt offers an “auto tune” functionality that will greatly help in tuning but it still isn’t full auto tuning.

The reality of EFI is that somehow, you are going to have to learn to “tune” what you have. No different than learning to tune carbs properly.

Even with all the power of AI and latest processors in ECU’s the OEM’s still employ calibration engineers to do the final tuning and much of it is done on road to get production calibrations.

Expecting a magic “self tune” capability out of a $1k product is going to leave you disappointed. Probably even more so when trying to apply it to the quirks of air cooled engines that run hotter than water pumpers and prefer to run on the rich side to keep the heads cool enough to not drop valve seats.

Tough crowd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

To quote myself:

As for a SniperEFI type of thing, I get a nice screen and probably get to play with just enough parameters for my level of knowledge.

I don't think any member here gobs the whole self tuning marketing, I take it as a starting point instead of loading a map downloaded somewhere.

Not all of us are engineers or want to play for hours with a laptop. Some of us are willing to leave some HP or torque on the table and just go driving.

What I would like as a potential customer, is for a vendor (with the help of an engineer preferably) to offer me a product that takes most of the guesswork out of the equation.

It's a great thread with a healthy debate and I hope we have vendors looking at it because it's a free focus group.