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| chris914 |
Nov 1 2007, 05:30 AM
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#1
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Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 489 Joined: 24-July 04 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 2,393 Region Association: Southern California |
Have you made changes to your 914 body or are you thinking of it?
Here are a number of computer models comparing different body modifications to the 914 and the effects that they have on the cars aerodynamic drag. http://www.cassidy-online.com/porsche914/aerodynamic_aids |
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| Mikey914 |
Nov 3 2007, 11:48 AM
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#2
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The rubber man ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 12,775 Joined: 27-December 04 From: Hillsboro, OR Member No.: 3,348 Region Association: None
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I agree, the wing must be suited for the application. In aircraft design, low speed 45-70mph the chord of the mean camber or thickness of the wing is on a curve that the slower it is effective, the thicker it will need to be. The real problem is that when lift is created (negative lift for this application) you also create Parasitic drag, now decreasing your top end speed.
If you were to use a wing it would have to be tuned specifically for the application for optimum benefit. Hence the $$$$$. The real solution would be to have a variable camber wing that was controlled by air pressure. This would be the easiest way to regulate the mean camber. The Helio courier is an excellent example of simple application of this concept, it is low tech, yet does some really incredible things. This aircraft has slats that drop down below 55 and when the air pressure is greater than 55 they roll back, buy airpressure. This allows the aircraft a minimum speed of about 30 mph, and it can cruse at 165 mph. With the exception of the top end these are the speeds that you would be operating at, and I bet the benefit of the changing geometry at about 55mph would also benefit. http://www.stolaircraft.com/ http://www.bush-planes.com/helio-courier.html For what it's worth. |
| chris914 |
Nov 3 2007, 01:03 PM
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#3
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Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 489 Joined: 24-July 04 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 2,393 Region Association: Southern California |
The real solution would be to have a variable camber wing that was controlled by air pressure. This would be the easiest way to regulate the mean camber. The Helio courier is an excellent example of simple application of this concept, it is low tech, yet does some really incredible things. This aircraft has slats that drop down below 55 and when the air pressure is greater than 55 they roll back, buy airpressure. This allows the aircraft a minimum speed of about 30 mph, and it can cruse at 165 mph. With the exception of the top end these are the speeds that you would be operating at, and I bet the benefit of the changing geometry at about 55mph would also benefit. Hmm, now that might make a good fluids and controls project for the students. |
| alpha434 |
Nov 3 2007, 01:58 PM
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#4
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My member number is no coincidence. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,154 Joined: 16-December 05 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 5,280 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
The real solution would be to have a variable camber wing that was controlled by air pressure. This would be the easiest way to regulate the mean camber. The Helio courier is an excellent example of simple application of this concept, it is low tech, yet does some really incredible things. This aircraft has slats that drop down below 55 and when the air pressure is greater than 55 they roll back, buy airpressure. This allows the aircraft a minimum speed of about 30 mph, and it can cruse at 165 mph. With the exception of the top end these are the speeds that you would be operating at, and I bet the benefit of the changing geometry at about 55mph would also benefit. Hmm, now that might make a good fluids and controls project for the students. Early race car wings were actuated by the brakes. Hit the brakes, and the wing flopped down. Let off, and the wing went straight. Easy. Also, I have pictures of 356s in the 60s with wings mounted on the front trailing arms and tied to the body. When the suspension moved up (the wheel starts to leave the ground,) the wing exposes more surface area and holds the wheel to the ground. Easy. |
| Mugs914 |
Nov 3 2007, 08:46 PM
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#5
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"Hey, yellow IS faster!" ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 618 Joined: 22-July 05 From: Temple TEXAS Member No.: 4,452 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Early race car wings were actuated by the brakes. Hit the brakes, and the wing flopped down. Let off, and the wing went straight. Easy. Not quite so easy... I don't know of any that worked off of the brake. One reason is that the wing going "straight" when you let off the brake minimizes the downforce just when you need it most; right when you're trying to accelerate through the corner. Mercedes had an air brake mounted behind the cockpit of their LeMans cars in 1955 but it was hinged at the rear and operated only as a brake and not in any kind of (intentional) downforce producing capacity. A couple of cars in the original Can-Am experimented with aero braking, but all of the ones I'm aware of used a separate panel rather than the wing itself. The wings on the various Chaparrals were connected to a pedal on the left side of the floor where the clutch would normally be (They used an "automatic" transmission with no clutch). The driver controlled the wing using high angle for braking and cornering and flattening it out for the straights. Most of the movable wings were connected directly to the suspension and were designed to increase angle of attack as the suspension extended, just like you described on the 356. Sorry to go on so. One of my favorite subjects! Also, I have pictures of 356s in the 60s with wings mounted on the front trailing arms and tied to the body. When the suspension moved up (the wheel starts to leave the ground,) the wing exposes more surface area and holds the wheel to the ground. Easy. I'd like to see those. Post 'em! |
chris914 Aerodynamic Aids - What a drag Nov 1 2007, 05:30 AM
TeenerTim Interesting but the 2006 report doesn't addres... Nov 1 2007, 08:31 AM
BahnBrenner914 :agree: Nov 1 2007, 09:48 AM
jd74914 They 2007 report says that they tested CFD models ... Nov 1 2007, 09:53 AM
sean_v8_914 the flow path is the relevant info. Nov 1 2007, 09:59 AM
chris914 Over the past three years, three different student... Nov 1 2007, 01:46 PM
TeenerTim Now if they could determine the optimum height, su... Nov 1 2007, 02:27 PM
Joe Ricard Please steer your students to test something like ... Nov 1 2007, 02:52 PM
wbergtho
The only time aerodynamic aids will make an appre... Nov 1 2007, 03:08 PM
chris914
The only time aerodynamic aids will make an appr... Nov 1 2007, 03:49 PM
jhadler
The only time aerodynamic aids will make an appr... Nov 1 2007, 05:38 PM
Joe Ricard Our slowest courses are 50 MPH.
I'm keeping ... Nov 1 2007, 03:38 PM
BahnBrenner914 This has got me thinking of my ME/Aero senior desi... Nov 1 2007, 09:25 PM
alpha434 Mr Hadler is definitely correct.
It's simple ... Nov 1 2007, 11:26 PM
Air_Cooled_Nut So does anyone have EQUATIONS that one could plug ... Nov 2 2007, 11:21 AM
chris914
So does anyone have EQUATIONS that one could plug... Nov 2 2007, 12:34 PM
Air_Cooled_Nut ...http://www.amazon.com/Aerodynamics-Hp1267-...72... Nov 3 2007, 02:52 PM
Mike914 I'd like to see some studies done on the airfl... Nov 2 2007, 12:27 PM
jhadler ...so should I remove, keep or reverse the little ... Nov 2 2007, 12:37 PM
Mike914
...so should I remove, keep or reverse the little... Nov 5 2007, 02:39 PM
jhadler
Actually NO fan anymore, the motor just has alumi... Nov 5 2007, 02:47 PM
Mike914 Uhm... First off, no fan equals no engine... Just ... Nov 6 2007, 07:39 PM
alpha434 Frontal profile X Cd = Drag Efficiency
Wind speed... Nov 2 2007, 12:46 PM
kwales Hunhhhhhh??????
Chris, according to you "th... Nov 2 2007, 07:54 PM
URY914 I'm getting in on this thread a little late, b... Nov 2 2007, 08:12 PM
Twystd1 Yea...
Those wings "MUST" be just for t... Nov 2 2007, 08:19 PM
URY914 There is a ratio for a wing's height to its de... Nov 2 2007, 08:21 PM
alpha434 Ken. That statement was half-joke. But only half. ... Nov 3 2007, 12:31 AM
Twystd1 Chris...................
Be nice dammit.
Da old ... Nov 3 2007, 01:46 AM
d914 ok, jumping in, no areo background and for the neo... Nov 3 2007, 07:57 AM
Joe Ricard My wing was not cheap and it is NOT a "RICER... Nov 3 2007, 08:56 AM
d914 didnt mean it as a shot, just alittle toward styli... Nov 3 2007, 09:15 AM
sean_v8_914 my wing a ling your wing a ling, won't you pla... Nov 3 2007, 11:03 AM
Air_Cooled_Nut
... those HUGE wings do work at lower speeds but ... Nov 3 2007, 02:47 PM
Mugs914 Just a few somewhat random thoughts to add to the ... Nov 3 2007, 12:28 PM
Mugs914 Another couplea thoughts:
Airplane wings operate ... Nov 3 2007, 01:21 PM
Headrage You know what they say:
The bigger the wing, the ... Nov 3 2007, 08:56 PM
Mugs914
You know what they say:
The bigger the wing, the... Nov 3 2007, 09:24 PM
alpha434 Well... You're right about the "no downfo... Nov 3 2007, 09:57 PM
grantsfo I love amatuer aerodynamic discussions.
Anyone ... Nov 3 2007, 11:16 PM
jhadler
I love amatuer aerodynamic discussions.
Anyone... Nov 5 2007, 11:46 AM
BahnBrenner914 Alright, reading through all this stuff is really ... Nov 4 2007, 12:30 PM
chris914 I will most likely be sponsoring another student g... Nov 4 2007, 02:41 PM
grantsfo
I will most likely be sponsoring another student ... Nov 4 2007, 08:47 PM
chris914
Curious did you model any down force calculations... Nov 4 2007, 11:16 PM
jd74914 Chris, have you ever used Fluent? Some guys here a... Nov 4 2007, 08:58 PM
chris914
Chris, have you ever used Fluent? Some guys here ... Nov 4 2007, 11:20 PM
sean_v8_914 like Mugz said...random thoughts... from an amateu... Nov 5 2007, 12:11 AM
sean_v8_914 Elise, Exige Enzo too. Nov 5 2007, 12:12 AM
jd74914 One more question. It says in the 2007 piece that ... Nov 5 2007, 12:58 AM
chris914
One more question. It says in the 2007 piece that... Nov 5 2007, 04:27 AM
kwales Hey!
Thanks for the big shot of the different... Nov 6 2007, 08:23 PM
kwales OK boys,
I'm priming the pump....
Here is 2 ... Nov 6 2007, 08:40 PM![]() ![]() |
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