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> Aerodynamic Aids - What a drag, What’s your drag?
chris914
post Nov 1 2007, 05:30 AM
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Have you made changes to your 914 body or are you thinking of it?

Here are a number of computer models comparing different body modifications to the 914 and the effects that they have on the cars aerodynamic drag.

http://www.cassidy-online.com/porsche914/aerodynamic_aids
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Mikey914
post Nov 3 2007, 11:48 AM
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I agree, the wing must be suited for the application. In aircraft design, low speed 45-70mph the chord of the mean camber or thickness of the wing is on a curve that the slower it is effective, the thicker it will need to be. The real problem is that when lift is created (negative lift for this application) you also create Parasitic drag, now decreasing your top end speed.

If you were to use a wing it would have to be tuned specifically for the application for optimum benefit. Hence the $$$$$.

The real solution would be to have a variable camber wing that was controlled by air pressure. This would be the easiest way to regulate the mean camber. The Helio courier is an excellent example of simple application of this concept, it is low tech, yet does some really incredible things. This aircraft has slats that drop down below 55 and when the air pressure is greater than 55 they roll back, buy airpressure. This allows the aircraft a minimum speed of about 30 mph, and it can cruse at 165 mph. With the exception of the top end these are the speeds that you would be operating at, and I bet the benefit of the changing geometry at about 55mph would also benefit.


http://www.stolaircraft.com/
http://www.bush-planes.com/helio-courier.html

For what it's worth.
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chris914
post Nov 3 2007, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Nov 3 2007, 10:48 AM) *


The real solution would be to have a variable camber wing that was controlled by air pressure. This would be the easiest way to regulate the mean camber. The Helio courier is an excellent example of simple application of this concept, it is low tech, yet does some really incredible things. This aircraft has slats that drop down below 55 and when the air pressure is greater than 55 they roll back, buy airpressure. This allows the aircraft a minimum speed of about 30 mph, and it can cruse at 165 mph. With the exception of the top end these are the speeds that you would be operating at, and I bet the benefit of the changing geometry at about 55mph would also benefit.


Hmm, now that might make a good fluids and controls project for the students.

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alpha434
post Nov 3 2007, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE(chris914 @ Nov 3 2007, 01:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Nov 3 2007, 10:48 AM) *


The real solution would be to have a variable camber wing that was controlled by air pressure. This would be the easiest way to regulate the mean camber. The Helio courier is an excellent example of simple application of this concept, it is low tech, yet does some really incredible things. This aircraft has slats that drop down below 55 and when the air pressure is greater than 55 they roll back, buy airpressure. This allows the aircraft a minimum speed of about 30 mph, and it can cruse at 165 mph. With the exception of the top end these are the speeds that you would be operating at, and I bet the benefit of the changing geometry at about 55mph would also benefit.


Hmm, now that might make a good fluids and controls project for the students.



Early race car wings were actuated by the brakes. Hit the brakes, and the wing flopped down. Let off, and the wing went straight. Easy.

Also, I have pictures of 356s in the 60s with wings mounted on the front trailing arms and tied to the body. When the suspension moved up (the wheel starts to leave the ground,) the wing exposes more surface area and holds the wheel to the ground. Easy.
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Mugs914
post Nov 3 2007, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE(alpha434 @ Nov 3 2007, 12:58 PM) *

Early race car wings were actuated by the brakes. Hit the brakes, and the wing flopped down. Let off, and the wing went straight. Easy.


Not quite so easy... I don't know of any that worked off of the brake. One reason is that the wing going "straight" when you let off the brake minimizes the downforce just when you need it most; right when you're trying to accelerate through the corner.

Mercedes had an air brake mounted behind the cockpit of their LeMans cars in 1955 but it was hinged at the rear and operated only as a brake and not in any kind of (intentional) downforce producing capacity. A couple of cars in the original Can-Am experimented with aero braking, but all of the ones I'm aware of used a separate panel rather than the wing itself.

The wings on the various Chaparrals were connected to a pedal on the left side of the floor where the clutch would normally be (They used an "automatic" transmission with no clutch). The driver controlled the wing using high angle for braking and cornering and flattening it out for the straights.

Most of the movable wings were connected directly to the suspension and were designed to increase angle of attack as the suspension extended, just like you described on the 356.

Sorry to go on so. One of my favorite subjects!

QUOTE(alpha434 @ Nov 3 2007, 12:58 PM) *
Also, I have pictures of 356s in the 60s with wings mounted on the front trailing arms and tied to the body. When the suspension moved up (the wheel starts to leave the ground,) the wing exposes more surface area and holds the wheel to the ground. Easy.


I'd like to see those. Post 'em!
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Posts in this topic
chris914   Aerodynamic Aids - What a drag   Nov 1 2007, 05:30 AM
TeenerTim   Interesting but the 2006 report doesn't addres...   Nov 1 2007, 08:31 AM
BahnBrenner914   :agree:   Nov 1 2007, 09:48 AM
jd74914   They 2007 report says that they tested CFD models ...   Nov 1 2007, 09:53 AM
sean_v8_914   the flow path is the relevant info.   Nov 1 2007, 09:59 AM
chris914   Over the past three years, three different student...   Nov 1 2007, 01:46 PM
TeenerTim   Now if they could determine the optimum height, su...   Nov 1 2007, 02:27 PM
Joe Ricard   Please steer your students to test something like ...   Nov 1 2007, 02:52 PM
wbergtho   The only time aerodynamic aids will make an appre...   Nov 1 2007, 03:08 PM
chris914   The only time aerodynamic aids will make an appr...   Nov 1 2007, 03:49 PM
jhadler   The only time aerodynamic aids will make an appr...   Nov 1 2007, 05:38 PM
Joe Ricard   Our slowest courses are 50 MPH. I'm keeping ...   Nov 1 2007, 03:38 PM
BahnBrenner914   This has got me thinking of my ME/Aero senior desi...   Nov 1 2007, 09:25 PM
alpha434   Mr Hadler is definitely correct. It's simple ...   Nov 1 2007, 11:26 PM
Air_Cooled_Nut   So does anyone have EQUATIONS that one could plug ...   Nov 2 2007, 11:21 AM
chris914   So does anyone have EQUATIONS that one could plug...   Nov 2 2007, 12:34 PM
Air_Cooled_Nut   ...http://www.amazon.com/Aerodynamics-Hp1267-...72...   Nov 3 2007, 02:52 PM
Mike914   I'd like to see some studies done on the airfl...   Nov 2 2007, 12:27 PM
jhadler   ...so should I remove, keep or reverse the little ...   Nov 2 2007, 12:37 PM
Mike914   ...so should I remove, keep or reverse the little...   Nov 5 2007, 02:39 PM
jhadler   Actually NO fan anymore, the motor just has alumi...   Nov 5 2007, 02:47 PM
Mike914   Uhm... First off, no fan equals no engine... Just ...   Nov 6 2007, 07:39 PM
alpha434   Frontal profile X Cd = Drag Efficiency Wind speed...   Nov 2 2007, 12:46 PM
kwales   Hunhhhhhh?????? Chris, according to you "th...   Nov 2 2007, 07:54 PM
URY914   I'm getting in on this thread a little late, b...   Nov 2 2007, 08:12 PM
Twystd1   Yea... Those wings "MUST" be just for t...   Nov 2 2007, 08:19 PM
URY914   There is a ratio for a wing's height to its de...   Nov 2 2007, 08:21 PM
alpha434   Ken. That statement was half-joke. But only half. ...   Nov 3 2007, 12:31 AM
Twystd1   Chris................... Be nice dammit. Da old ...   Nov 3 2007, 01:46 AM
d914   ok, jumping in, no areo background and for the neo...   Nov 3 2007, 07:57 AM
Joe Ricard   My wing was not cheap and it is NOT a "RICER...   Nov 3 2007, 08:56 AM
d914   didnt mean it as a shot, just alittle toward styli...   Nov 3 2007, 09:15 AM
sean_v8_914   my wing a ling your wing a ling, won't you pla...   Nov 3 2007, 11:03 AM
Air_Cooled_Nut   ... those HUGE wings do work at lower speeds but ...   Nov 3 2007, 02:47 PM
Mikey914   I agree, the wing must be suited for the applicati...   Nov 3 2007, 11:48 AM
chris914   The real solution would be to have a variable ca...   Nov 3 2007, 01:03 PM
alpha434   The real solution would be to have a variable c...   Nov 3 2007, 01:58 PM
Mugs914   Early race car wings were actuated by the brakes....   Nov 3 2007, 08:46 PM
Mugs914   Just a few somewhat random thoughts to add to the ...   Nov 3 2007, 12:28 PM
Mugs914   Another couplea thoughts: Airplane wings operate ...   Nov 3 2007, 01:21 PM
Headrage   You know what they say: The bigger the wing, the ...   Nov 3 2007, 08:56 PM
Mugs914   You know what they say: The bigger the wing, the...   Nov 3 2007, 09:24 PM
alpha434   Well... You're right about the "no downfo...   Nov 3 2007, 09:57 PM
grantsfo   I love amatuer aerodynamic discussions. Anyone ...   Nov 3 2007, 11:16 PM
jhadler   I love amatuer aerodynamic discussions. Anyone...   Nov 5 2007, 11:46 AM
BahnBrenner914   Alright, reading through all this stuff is really ...   Nov 4 2007, 12:30 PM
chris914   I will most likely be sponsoring another student g...   Nov 4 2007, 02:41 PM
grantsfo   I will most likely be sponsoring another student ...   Nov 4 2007, 08:47 PM
chris914   Curious did you model any down force calculations...   Nov 4 2007, 11:16 PM
jd74914   Chris, have you ever used Fluent? Some guys here a...   Nov 4 2007, 08:58 PM
chris914   Chris, have you ever used Fluent? Some guys here ...   Nov 4 2007, 11:20 PM
sean_v8_914   like Mugz said...random thoughts... from an amateu...   Nov 5 2007, 12:11 AM
sean_v8_914   Elise, Exige Enzo too.   Nov 5 2007, 12:12 AM
jd74914   One more question. It says in the 2007 piece that ...   Nov 5 2007, 12:58 AM
chris914   One more question. It says in the 2007 piece that...   Nov 5 2007, 04:27 AM
kwales   Hey! Thanks for the big shot of the different...   Nov 6 2007, 08:23 PM
kwales   OK boys, I'm priming the pump.... Here is 2 ...   Nov 6 2007, 08:40 PM


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