Opinions on placing car in neutral at stop lights. Options

[KELTY360]

and I doubt they'd say to teach something and then take points off for it.

This is government we're talking about, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[DBCooper]

and I doubt they'd say to teach something and then take points off for it.

This is government we're talking about, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Yes, and they're the ones giving the driving test and issuing you a license, so their game, their rules. And it's aligned with Marty's mechanic, so not bad practical advice, either. I repeat, crank main thrust bearings.

[Geezer914]

I always drop it in neutral when at a stop. When I see the light turn yellow, I push in the clutch, shift into 2nd and drop back into 1st. Saves on the first gear slider, throw out bearing, and clutch cable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[r_towle]

This is why all cars should be automatics.

[JawjaPorsche]

This is why all cars should be automatics.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

[Johny Blackstain]

Whenever I stop I try to keep it in neutral, regardless of cable or hydraulic. It's the way I was taught. Aside from my Kubota, I've never owned an automatic & automatics rule for cutting the grass. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[r_towle]

I put my automatic in neutral at stop lights......

[partsman]

I put my automatic in neutral at stop lights......

Yup... I do to. I have all wheel drive, and you can actually feel the car stop straining when you pull it out of drive. I have no scientific proof, but in the back of my mind, I feel leaving it in gear with the auto and all wheel drive, it's like the four wheels are pushing against the brakes, and the brakes are fighting to keep the wheels from moving...however miniscule it is.

plus, I do put the 914 in neutral at lights.

[era vulgaris]

I'd heard something similar, except that the wear was on the crank bearings. Without the pressure of the clutch against the flywheel, it allows for lateral movement in the crankshaft which can increase end play. It's also why you shouldn't start or stop the engine with the clutch pedal depressed.

No merit whatsoever. Since sometime in the 80s all manual trans cars have a kill switch to prevent one from starting the car without having the clutch released.

Leaving the clutch engaged adds main shaft rotation and cold thick gear oil to the starter load and is something else for the engine to overcome to run. Another reason not to.

I've been driving stick for 2 decades, I get my foot off the pedal as soon as possible as it puts an unnatural force on the knee joint.

European manuals didn't have the interlock switch until the last few years. I've never owned a car with a clutch interlock switch. From what I understand they were added more to prevent lawsuits from dumb people not checking if the car is in neutral before starting.
Maybe modern cars have thrust washers that can withstand that kind of wear, but here's a read regarding Triumphs. Specifically point #4:
http://www.britishcarweek.org/tr6_3.html
There's a similar attitude in the ACVW community. Wear through those thrust washers and the end play will get to the point that the crank, crank bearings, and block (or case, in our case!) can sustain serious damage.

[dlkawashima]

I always drop it into neutral at a stop light. The plantar fasciitis in my left foot flares up big time the longer I keep pressing down on the clutch pedal.

[Elliot Cannon]

Many years ago, some throw-out bearings weren't bearings at all. They used a graphite donut (like on my 1960 bug) encased in a steel cup. Whenever the clutch pedal was depressed, the graphite was gradually wearing down. When it wore down far enough, the steel cup started wearing a groove in the pres. plate. I was taught that the only time the clutch should be dis-engaged was when shifting gears. That lesson has stayed with me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[screenguy914]

My humble comments related to the discussion:

"Even with the tranny in neutral and the clutch engaged, the internal parts are spinning. This is evident if you ever jack up the rear of a car with the engine running.

Even if the clutch is disengaged, there is enough drag and kinetic motion to keep parts spinning."

The above description means the clutch isn't fully disengaged, even with the clutch pedal floored. There should be no drag or kinetic motion in a vehicle at rest and the transmission disengaged from the drive train. Adjust the free play to properly disengage the clutch mechanism.

"The 914 and 411 manuals didn’t really talk about these issues,………"

That's because the owner and repair manuals aren't basic automotive reference manuals. Most basic automotive books don't even address this unless there's an intermediate/advanced section on drivetrain diagnosis and repair.

However, many posters are correct in their responses. Under the specified conditions: - the TO bearing rotates
- the pressure plate fingers are compressed
- the force of the pressure plate springs are transferred to the flywheel and crank which increases axial load/wear on the thrust surfaces of the crankshaft main bearings.

"No merit whatsoever. Since sometime in the 80s all manual trans cars have a kill switch to prevent one from starting the car without having the clutch released." (referring to crank thrust bearing wear)

The last year of the 914 was 1976. Most cars before then did not have a clutch override switch. The above doesn't apply

"I coast down until the engine is @ idle speed and put in neutral without using the clutch.
At idle speed there is no resistance."

When in gear, the input shaft rotates, clutch engaged or disengaged, vehicle at rest or moving. If you wait until the vehicle stops before shifting out of gear, the still engaged drivetrain should cause the engine to stall (all still connected via the clutch). If you move the lever out of gear w/o the clutch, you're separating parts still under a slight load. Some wear - could be insignificant or not.

To the original poster, Cuda911. It's not automotive heresy to leave the clutch disengaged at idle, but some wear is caused by this strategy. Difficult shifting into 1st is a common occurrence with early, post 901/915 gearboxes. Sometimes,it's a function of adjusting the proper clutch pedal free play. It's also an expedient short cut owners discover to get into gear when a normal shift from neutral>first is balky. It's a common symptom of worn synchros, especially in 1st and 2nd gears. We can save the whys and solutions for another discussion.

[SirAndy]

California DMV driving test

True story:
When i first moved to CA from Germany, i went to the DMV to do the driving test to get my CA license.
After i got done with the ride with the examiner, he told me "You almost failed!".
I asked why and he just grinned and handed me his sheet of paper with notes scribbled on the side.
Every single note read "Too fast!".

He laughed, said "Welcome to California" and told me i could keep the paper ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[SKL1]

Usually put it in N when at lights in all my manuals (esp the GT3- that clutch is a killer), and do it with some autos, esp my wife's DSG in her Audi TTS. Gotta figure the drag against the brake isn't that good for the drivetrain.

[r_towle]

California DMV driving test

True story:
When i first moved to CA from Germany, i went to the DMV to do the driving test to get my CA license.
After i got done with the ride with the examiner, he told me "You almost failed!".
I asked why and he just grinned and handed me his sheet of paper with notes scribbled on the side.
Every single note read "Too fast!".

He laughed, said "Welcome to California" and told me i could keep the paper ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

FrAme that...

[Mike Bellis]

My humble comments related to the discussion:

"Even with the tranny in neutral and the clutch engaged, the internal parts are spinning. This is evident if you ever jack up the rear of a car with the engine running.

Even if the clutch is disengaged, there is enough drag and kinetic motion to keep parts spinning."

The above description means the clutch isn't fully disengaged, even with the clutch pedal floored. There should be no drag or kinetic motion in a vehicle at rest and the transmission disengaged from the drive train. Adjust the free play to properly disengage the clutch mechanism.

While your theory is valid, here are some things to consider.

With the clutch pressed in, the throwout bearing is under pressure. The pressure plate and flywheel is spinning. the disc slides on the shaft and may make contact with either surface, thus spinning the disc and the main shaft. For your theory to work, the disc would need to self center between the pressure plate and flywheel. While it may do this at times, odds of it happening every time is slim.

If the car is stopped, the disc will slip inside the open area between the pressure plate and flywheel and the car will not move as long as the clutch pedal is pressed. The space created is not much wider than the disc itself.

I would challenge you to jacking your car up and test the theory and prove nothing but the flywheel and pressure plate are spinning.

[campbellcj]

I always go to neutral in my (currently 3) manual trans cars when not in motion. Besides the wear issue, which is what I learned eons ago, it may be somewhat safer for you and your car in the event you get rear-ended while stopped. Hey, I'm old school and even double-clutch downshift sometimes...

[euro911]

For me, it depends on how long I think I'll be stopped at the signal. If it's a RXR crossing (with a train going by), I'll turn the ignition switch of off.

Be cognizant of your surroundings at all times.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

[boxsterfan]

I just leave it in gear, clutch is pressed in and I got my foot on the throttle revving the motor for the ladies. My license plate? PNTYDRPR

[partsman]

I just leave it in gear, clutch is pressed in and I got my foot on the throttle revving the motor for the ladies. My license plate? PNTYDRPR

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I bet you also go full throtle on start up, just to make sure the engine is running.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)