Putting together a Type IV dry sump system Options

[Flat6forlife]

Hey everyone,

I'm a few weeks away from dropping the drivetrain from my '73 1.7 for a refresh/rebuild. It's an IDF-carbed 2.4L (supposedly, I haven't cracked it open yet) that'll be used mostly for street driving but will see regular autocrosses and occasional track time, hence the dry sump. I've researched for a while and have a decent plan, but I'd love some insight from those who've put them together.

As it stands, the current plan is as follows:
914/6 oil tank with the attached filter
CB or Thorsten Pieper pump (I'd like to retain the OE fan)
Tangerine Racing Oil Cooler and Thermostat setup with the fan
Requisite braided AN lines with appropriate hardware

I see that CSP also makes a pump, but I can't find anyone who has experience with them. The TP pump seems like the best way to go, but the only dry-sumped racer I've seen used the CB to much success. Money isn't an issue for the TP pump; I'll pay for the extra protection and/or simpler installation. The CB needs modification if I've read correctly. Does anyone have a preference?

Also, using the 914/6 tank and its attached filter makes the original filter redundant. Should I run the LN oil filter block-off plate or use a filter relocation adapter to feed an oil cooler (with an inline thermostat) and leave the factory oil cooler in place for two coolers? Maybe double oil filters and the Tangerine oil cooler kit?

I appreciate the insight/assistance! Also, if this has been beaten and covered to death anywhere else, please link it. I'm happy to read and learn that way.

[BillJ]

You can go that way or just use what all the type 4 racecars i have seen (and have built on my own) use which is an accusump.

[BillJ]

This setup monitors pressure and provides additonal oil when the engine oil pressure drops below a certain threshold. It also pre-oils prior to.startup to preserve hotter setups. Here is a pic as installed on my last 4 cylinder racer:



It was wired to activate as soon as power was turned on so delivered oil prior to ignition. A very efficient and simple system. Ultimately also less expensive perhaps than your current plan unless you already have the oil tank.

[Superhawk996]

You can go that way or just use what all the type 4 racecars i have seen (and have built on my own) use which is an accusump.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Converting a wet sump to a dry sump is always a PITA. How to drive the pump? Where to mount the pump? Where to mount the oil tank (at least that one is easy) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) End up with external plumbing lines and leak sources - ugh!

If I recall Hoffman Automotive Machine (HAM) or maybe Jake Raby did a dry sump on a 914 race car long ago. I can’t remember the details but my recollection of seeing it was that it was a lot of work for little gain. Can’t seem to find it though? Anyone else remember who did it?

If you just want a constant oil pressure - to solve oil pickup problems - Accusump is the go-to solution.

Here’s a lead for you
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=57858

[gnomefabtech]

Accusump will keep the pressure up in a pinch but a big advantage to a dry sump is less drag from the sump oil getting up into the crank and much cooler and less foamy oil. This means you can run thinner oil for less friction as well.

I think to do it on a typeIV you would need to replace the stock oil filter with a can that just u-turns the oil right back into the engine. Cooler should go on the return line from the engine to the tank.

It might be possible to use the stock oil pump for the high pressure work if you could get a tube to it from the external oil tank and just have a belt driven scavenge pump. Check out used NASCAR dry sump parts on Ebay. THere's a lot to choose from if you are on a budget.

[Montreal914]

Aaron @yeahmag has a proven and tested setup!

[GregAmy]

I'm running a dry sump in my 914/4 2L 4-banger. CB Performance 2-stage pump with front-mount oil cooler and Canton dry sump tank where there fuel tank used to be (running a frunk-mount fuel cell).

My racer was an Improved Touring A racer in the early 00s that was experiencing pickup problems (and resulting bearing failures) when Hoosier Purple Crack started getting good. It wasn't a problem with quick transient stuff but extended corners like Lime Rock's Big Bend and Watkins Glen's Carousel (Outer Loop) was fragging engines. When I got it to build for vintage/historics I chose to dry sump it and not worry about it. Chris Foley/Tangerine did most of the engineering work.

Glad to assist as I can, but not quite sure what you're asking?

GA

[Dave_Darling]

The biggest problem that I can see is the pump itself. You need multiple pump stages to do a dry sump--at least one for scavenging, that delivers high volume low pressure, and one for feeding the engine that provides high pressure and lower volume. There's not a lot of room between the stock pump and the fan shroud.

Back In The Day ™, people would change to upright cooling when they went dry-sump. Sounds like you don't like that option, though.

I've heard of people running belt-operated oil pumps, but having that set of extra failure points in my oil system would make me very very nervous.

Do you know if any of your chosen pumps will clear the stock fan shroud?

--DD

[GregAmy]

Do you know if any of your chosen pumps will clear the stock fan shroud?

Was that for me, Dave? The CB pump and lines clears the stock fan shroud.

2-stage; one stage pulls from the engine and does the work forward to the cooler and back, one (like the stock pump) pressurises the engine.

I have never ever liked the idea of a single stage pump driving oil through a forward cooler *and* pressurizing the engine on a race car; even with the thicker pumps that's just a lot of work for one stage to manage. For the street it's OK, but for a constantly high-revving engine, coupled to our limited oil capacity (and poor flat sump design) it becomes a problem with extended side loads. A tuna can helps, but doesn't resolve, the design limitations of the Type IV engine sump.

I'm also not a fan of Accusumps in race cars, for the same reasons. I consider them BandAids that dont address the root problem. Accumsumps do fine what they do but they have a limited capacity and timeframe for doing it. If you have a series of corners that don't allow the system to fully recharge in between then you get a "jacking down effect" where your capacity - and available timespan - is constantly decreasing, so it just delays an inevitable.

The OP asked about modifying the CB pump for the TIV. It's designed for the Type I and @ChrisFoley did mention having to shorten the shaft (I think) to make it work. It's whatever mod has to be done to use any TI pump in a TIV engine.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1745.htm

Chris uses a different manufacturer's dry sump pump in his F Production 1.8L engine, and his downdraft cooling system. I borrowed that engine for a couple race weekends while mine was being rebuilt (someone should buy it) and I noticed a significant improvement in basic oil volume flow back into the sump tank. That engine also indicated higher oil pressure but that is likely due more to the bleed off settings, his engine used a different external design while mine stills relies on the internal bleed off (using his replacement valve).

So, bottm line, dry sump in the TIV has been done.

IMO for autocross and occasional track use with short sessions (I've TNIA'd my street car) a good stock system with an external oil cooler (my street car's is under the trunk) is fine. The problem comes up when you start getting into really sticky race tires, extended sessions, a need for front oil cooler, and long-duration turns and carousels. That's when the decision for a dry sump system is important. - GA

[ClayPerrine]

The late Wes Hildreth built a 4 cylinder 914 with a dry sump. IIRC he used the VW two stage oil pump for the automatic stick shift cars. With that it fit behind the factory fan shroud. There were also some case mods to make the front stage connect to the pickup, and to connect the tank output to the rear stage to supply pressurized oil to the motor. I can't give you the details, I only saw the motor in the car, never on the bench to see the mods.

It can be done. Is it worth it? I don't know. The fact that there is already an oil tank that fits a 914 makes it easier.

[ChrisFoley]

Here are two different vintages of CB Performance 2 stage pumps I've used in my own race car




The challenge of using this pump is mostly dealing with the engine mount. I use a different mount that works with my horizontal fan setup so its not an issue for me.
Something else that I think is a big deal is that the pump only has dash 8 ports, so I went to some effort to increase the inlet and outlet fitting sizes.
Finally, its said that those pump stages are too small, so I endeavored to remove restrictions at every turn in the system. Mostly that meant no sharp corners and no long runs thru small diameter hoses.
I've had no issues with oil other than valve cover leaks.

At one time I used a two stage pump from Europerf based on the Melling pump but it didn't have an internal crossover.

Someone upthread mentioned the CB pumps needing the shaft shortened to fit. I think that's somewhat camshaft dependent. Some cams have the groove machined shallower than others.

[Flat6forlife]

Glad to assist as I can, but not quite sure what you're asking?

GA

The short of it really was, "will this setup work?" I have lots of help around me for 6-cyls but no one with extensive TIV experience.


Chris, I'm not too worried about fabbing an engine mount bracket; I have the people and tools to help with that if necessary. Also, the TP pump uses M22x1.5 ports for its inlet and outlet, and I'll be able to run -10 or -12 AN fitting/lines for better flow over the CB pump. Not to mention the larger 38mm suction and 26mm pressure gears. I'm certainly interested in internal oiling modifications to the case if there are any surefire ways to clear up restrictions within it. I figure your oil pressure relief valve is a good start. I'm running 205/60 Hoosier Speedsters, so the dry sump will be necessary in my case.

I'll have to make the trip up to Manchester sometime soon for a chat and for some parts. I'm down on LI, and my office is in Milford.

For those wondering, the TP pump nearly fits under the stock shroud but will require a small notch. I don't foresee that being an enormous issue, but I can always pivot if needed.

Greg, I believe I met you at the LRP Historics last year with some of my coworkers from FCP Euro. We chatted briefly about your dry-sump setup which gave me the confidence to pursue this a bit more.

[914werke]

Here are two different vintages of CB Performance 2 stage pumps I've used in my own race car

It looks kike you also modded the case to remove the boss for the T2 oil fill?

[ChrisFoley]

And I welded shut the threaded hole where the thermostat pulley attaches to the case.

[914werke]

And I welded shut the threaded hole where the thermostat pulley attaches to the case.

revisiting this as whenever I get a spare moment Im doing the home work on my own big /4 build
Are those -10? & what size line is best to use at the sump PU, bigger is better?

[rhodyguy]

Dave Hunt installed a dry sump when he built his 2270.

[Shivers]

Hey everyone,

I'm a few weeks away from dropping the drivetrain from my '73 1.7 for a refresh/rebuild. It's an IDF-carbed 2.4L (supposedly, I haven't cracked it open yet) that'll be used mostly for street driving but will see regular autocrosses and occasional track time, hence the dry sump. I've researched for a while and have a decent plan, but I'd love some insight from those who've put them together.

As it stands, the current plan is as follows:
914/6 oil tank with the attached filter
CB or Thorsten Pieper pump (I'd like to retain the OE fan)
Tangerine Racing Oil Cooler and Thermostat setup with the fan
Requisite braided AN lines with appropriate hardware

I see that CSP also makes a pump, but I can't find anyone who has experience with them. The TP pump seems like the best way to go, but the only dry-sumped racer I've seen used the CB to much success. Money isn't an issue for the TP pump; I'll pay for the extra protection and/or simpler installation. The CB needs modification if I've read correctly. Does anyone have a preference?

Also, using the 914/6 tank and its attached filter makes the original filter redundant. Should I run the LN oil filter block-off plate or use a filter relocation adapter to feed an oil cooler (with an inline thermostat) and leave the factory oil cooler in place for two coolers? Maybe double oil filters and the Tangerine oil cooler kit?

I appreciate the insight/assistance! Also, if this has been beaten and covered to death anywhere else, please link it. I'm happy to read and learn that way.

I have not read this through yet, but I thought of you so here is a link.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=236133