914/6 vs. 914/4 AX Performance, Heated Disscussion Within Options

[nine14cats]

I'm going to be biased on this one but if someone built an AX purpose built -6, I think you could do pretty well. In our region, Andrew and Steve have very light, AX only, 4 cyl cars weighing in somewhere between 1500 and 1800 lbs. Add the fact that they are great drivers and they are darn near unbeatable. But, I could get within thousands of a second in AX's to them with my 2.7-6. And with my fat butt and track fixins my car weighed at least 500 to 600lbs heavier. One caveat is that I didn't run this year, so I didn't get to run against Andrew after he dialed in his car.

I'm debating on taking The Beast out in 2007 as an AX killer. Of course, I would put a 2.7/2.8 in there to test my theory that a -6 prepped for AX only would win..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Anyone have a hot 2.7 they have laying around? I'll share the ride with you in The Beast and we can see what happens..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

Can you tell?.....I vote SIX!

Bill P.

[Trekkor]

Exposure #2 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax3/lprax3.htm

This is gonna get boring quick (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif)


KT

[r_towle]

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Nov 16 2005, 01:47 AM)

I'm going to be biased on this one but if someone built an AX purpose built -6, I think you could do pretty well. In our region, Andrew and Steve have very light, AX only, 4 cyl cars weighing in somewhere between 1500 and 1800 lbs. Add the fact that they are great drivers and they are darn near unbeatable. But, I could get within thousands of a second in AX's to them with my 2.7-6. And with my fat butt and track fixins my car weighed at least 500 to 600lbs heavier. One caveat is that I didn't run this year, so I didn't get to run against Andrew after he dialed in his car. I'm debating on taking The Beast out in 2007 as an AX killer. Of course, I would put a 2.7/2.8 in there to test my theory that a -6 prepped for AX only would win..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) Anyone have a hot 2.7 they have laying around? I'll share the ride with you in The Beast and we can see what happens..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif) Can you tell?.....I vote SIX! Bill P.

I would respectfully question those weight numbers,


I had a roofless, winshieldless, race car with a cage.

fiberglass hoods, fenders, and bumpers...

Wet weight without driver 1750.

I personally think that the six is the ticket...but you need to build a purpose built 2,2 or just a little bit bigger...

It would produce much more torque than a /4

I drive a /4 btw

Rich

[Trekkor]

Oh and the 3 TTOD at RR-PCA this year by 914-6's...
Two of which were by me (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mueba.gif)


KT

Britt...nice (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif)

[nine14cats]

Hi Rich,

How much weight did you get off the engine? I know Andrew took off his fan and housing. Their team pushes the car to the line and start it only when they are about to get the flag, then shut her down. Purpose built for AX.

You may be right about those numbers. I cut alot of metal out of my car and still couldn't get it below a wet weight of 2150 lbs.

So I guess I was only giving up 400 lbs... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Bill P.

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE

It would produce much more torque than a /4

Thats a very general statement...

What /4 are you comparing it to? At what RPM??

I have a couple of 2316s about making over 200lbs of torque at only 3500 RPM, and thats not even running race gas... Getting that much power to the ground has been an issue for more than one of them. I have one of these engines being used in a drift car in Europe and it works incredibly well just because it DOES NOT stick!

As far as weight goes- Adding a set of Nickies will take 22 pounds off the engine immediately!

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Nov 15 2005, 11:08 PM)

... Their team pushes the car to the line and start it only when they are about to get the flag, then shut her down. Purpose built for AX...

Which I find boooooring. The fact that you can drive your car to an autocross, race, then drive it back home (or it's at the very least street-legal if you trailer it to events) is why I like autocross. When it gets to this level (drag racing included) all the cars are just about the same, only under a different skin and money is too much of the equation (which is why it's nice to have different classes).

[Trekkor]

QUOTE

Which I find boooooring.

Exactly.

None of these lightwieght winners will be out enjoying the backroads on a 2.5 hour drive the next day.

I trailer...for comfort (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)


KT

[SirAndy]

the initial question was about "compareable" cars. you guys are all waaaaay off base ...

super lightweight /4, stockish /6, build up /6 ... all comparing apples with crowbars ...

two *identical* cars, same driver, one with a built up /4, one with a built up /6, SAME hp, same gearing, same everything, for ease of comparison, let's say warmed over 2.0L ...

in my humble experience, the /4 would be quicker at the AX due to the different torque/rpm/hp band than the /6 ...

that was the initial question, that was my initial answer, and i'm still sticking to it ...

everything else posted here was pretty much useless drivel as it ignored the actual question he asked ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) Andy

[nine14cats]

ouch...I stand corrected..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

I'm with JP....by all means...go with a T4.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

Bill P.

aka...drivelmeisterwannabe

[URY914]

QUOTE (Britain Smith @ Nov 15 2005, 09:02 PM)

I know this guy...he is looking to purchase a 914...wants to be really fast on the AX course...and can't decide between an original 6 (or conversion) w/ 2.7L (or some sort of uprated motor) or a Raby (or similar) four cylinder. Putting the discussion on equal playing grounds, lets say that both chassis are identical, which would be faster on the AX course? This is assuming a well built chassis, with a cage, upgraded suspension, hoosiers (or similar) tires, etc. -Britain

So a 2.7 -6 or a Jake built -4. What size -4?

I think one of Jake's 2316s would slap a 2.7 -6.

[DNHunt]

This is all very interesting but, with equally prepared cars, the issue is really the driver and even if you use the same driver, then there's the issue of familiarity with the cars, then conditions. You can keep finding more and more variables. Great garage racing granted but, it's really a question with many answers.

If he wants TTOD, tell your friend to pick a car, spend some money, then spend some more money, etc. and if he can't buy success then learn to drive, then learn some more, etc. If he's smart he'll do that in the opposite order. To somebody watching it kind of looks like a cat chasing it's tail. Not my cup of tea!

I won't ever be a front runner but I sure do enjoy seeing myself getting better. And, I enjoy the people and the cars.

Dave

[Joe Ricard]

Well, I got to jump in here. Not sure of the car in the virtual 914Cup. how many are 4's Hassan drove my car and has 2 TTOD's in SCCA Street Mod 2 I drove the car 186 miles one way changed tires raced and then happily drove home.

My 4 doesn't make much over 105 at the crank and maybe less.

So compare apples to apples Both Trekkor's car and mine are SM-2 any RABY motor puts you in SM-2. any REAL stock 6 runs A stock real stock 4' run C stock and Then D street prepared.

Weight limit for SM-2 is 1900 lbs. If you are under that you go to Something MOD. and you better be packing some big HP. So I would hope a 1500 pound car would clean up pretty handily......

Anyway I'd run any of you SM-2 guys and be willing to swap drivers to see who can make which car faster. I know I got the driver (just ain't me)

[Bleyseng]

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Nov 15 2005, 11:01 PM)

if i were building an AX-only car it'd be a /4 for the weight break. look at trekkor's car vs mine (similar level of preparation): he has undoubtedly more power than i do (that six just flat hauls ass), but he doesn't get on the cam until 6k. i got torque. that said, there's always the Fordahl 914-6....

I have watched and raced against the Fordahl six and hhmmm, no contest!

Jake would have to make this a personal goal to back someone who could take it to that kind of level.

[Demick]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 15 2005, 11:47 PM)

Exposure #2 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax3/lprax3.htm This is gonna get boring quick (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif) KT

Uhhhh, Trekkor. How come Nathan beat you by more than 2 seconds? And Andy beat you by more than 1 second? Looks to me like Exposure #2 shows the fours are beating your six?? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Trekkor]

QUOTE

fours are beating your six

that's true, we had a great time, too. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

I was showing a SIX at TTOD over fast FOURS... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)


KT

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Nov 16 2005, 07:37 AM)

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Nov 15 2005, 11:01 PM) if i were building an AX-only car it'd be a /4 for the weight break.  look at trekkor's car vs mine (similar level of preparation):  he has undoubtedly more power than i do (that six just flat hauls ass), but he doesn't get on the cam until 6k.  i got torque.   that said, there's always the Fordahl 914-6.... I have watched and raced against the Fordahl six and hhmmm, no contest! Jake would have to make this a personal goal to back someone who could take it to that kind of level.

I already have the car/driver.... He is a member of the board here and has been talking to me for the last year about a certain engine- it would be the largest displacement engine that has ever left my shop for a customer....

If I wasn't so peeved at the 914 world right now I'd probably give him a deal and Git R done!

[Demick]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 16 2005, 09:55 AM)

I was showing a SIX at TTOD over fast FOURS... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

Yes, but that is comparing one of the best prepared 914-6's (many time PCA AutoX national champion), to a couple of ill-prepared 914-4 street cars. Not quite fair.

Like Nathan said, a comparison between your car and his is much more interesting.

[Britain Smith]

Well, this discussion got a little out of hand...but I expected that.

Andy hit it right, I am asking about equally prepared cars. Basically, take a well prepared chassis like I mentioned (hoosiers, sorted suspension, cage, etc.) and do a sway between a hopped-up 2.7L six and compare it to a Raby-prepared 2.3L. Lets say that both engines put out a healthy 200ft-lbs of torque. In this case both cars would be the same weight, minus engine. Granted, there will be a few suspension set-up differences between the different engine configurations, but leave that out for this discussion. Now...which set-up would have the upper hand?

Also, how much does a hopped-up 2.7L engine cost to have built? IIRC, it is in the same price range as a Raby engine (7K-12K)...someone correct me if I am wrong.

You can look at AX results all day long, but if the competition didn't show up then your results are null. In other words, showing that you are TTOD at a certain autocross is not really that valid unless there is a car there that is comparable to yours to compete against. Heck, my 1.7L basically stock teener took top-5 or so at the last two AX events here...

-Britain

[Jake Raby]

It has a TON to do with the way both engines are prepped.. AX engines thrive from high port velocities, a ton of torque but then are complicated by those traits demanding a broad powerband to minimize shifting primarily... In this regard the 4 or the 6 need the same internal attention.

My old Hybrid 2316 would have been one hell of an AX engine, turning onto any back road I could leave the car in 3rd gear and absolutely smoke the tiresfor a solid 50 feet- Thats real usable torque right where it needs to be.

The other thing to remember is what happens when each engine breaks??? My engine has a large initial cost, but the parts to repair it are dirt cheap compared to a six... Also there is nothing that can't be repaired in a weekend with the -4, its definately not that simple with a six.... and certainly not that cheap.

Heck one of my F production racers with a full SCCA legal 1800cc engine took TTOD at quite a few events last year, and that car weighs 2020 pounds and has literally ZERO power below 5,500 RPM... The car is far from built for AX, but he has at least 5 TTOD to date that I know of... ury914 knows him..

Never forget that luck has a lot to do with any sort of racing, and some guys just are not lucky, even with plenty of HP!