I know this guy...he is looking to purchase a 914...wants to be really fast on the AX course...and can't decide between an original 6 (or conversion) w/ 2.7L (or some sort of uprated motor) or a Raby (or similar) four cylinder.

Putting the discussion on equal playing grounds, lets say that both chassis are identical, which would be faster on the AX course? This is assuming a well built chassis, with a cage, upgraded suspension, hoosiers (or similar) tires, etc.

For AX purposes, my vote would go for the 4-cylinder car all the way. I have my reasons, but I want to hear yours first...so which is it?

-Britain

Well, a T4 can make a bunch of tq (autox good) and also built properly, rev high.

Then there the fact that the T4 is also lighter...

Equally built, ie, same car, throw in a 150hp 4 in, take times. throw a 160hp 6 (added power due to added weight), and 40lb stiffer springs.. the 4 I believe would be faster...


But you cant make 300hp very easily from a 4...

QUOTE (Britain Smith @ Nov 15 2005, 10:02 PM)

For AX purposes, my vote would go for the 4-cylinder car all the way. I have my reasons, but I want to hear yours first...so which is it?

in my experience, the powerband of a warmed over /4 is better suited for AX ...

the /6 takes too long to spool up and needs to be run at too high RPM which is a disadvantage for courses with a lot of tight corners and not many long straights.

of course, that's just MHO ...
Andy

Sixes, and especially bigger sixes, take much more finesse to drive. I'd vote for a hot four. Maybe a high revving (7500) 2056.

at least in our region we have "proof"

a /4 took top honors for every event they came out to...only time a /6 won was when the /4 car didn't show up

Oh no- This is gonna be a heated one....

I'm going back to the machine shop now ......

By all means, get a T-4.

I think it depends on the driver! If you look at the Porsche Parade as an example, 914-6s have been TTOD for years with few exceptons (hot rod 911s for instance). At local venues, where space is restricted somewhat, a lighter 4 cylinder car with a well built short geared trans, sticky tires, etc will be about unbeatable. Until James Gunn-Wilkenson comes along with a Turbo 930 of all things and even beats tube framed 914s!!! Now he at least moved to a GT2 and is winning SCCA Pro-Solo, but anyways, like I said it is the driver.

Part of the reason that Andrew B has done so well with his car is it has been lightened....way light.
No one I know with a 914-6 has gone to the extremes that Andrew has.
Andrew is a very good Axer and drives the car to its max.
A well built 2.7L with similar weight would be hard to beat with equal drivers.
I chose a 2.7L RS spec since they have a very good torque curve especially at the mid RPM ranges that would be used coming off corner in an AX.
Bill Pickering used to get pretty close to Andrew with a car that had much more weight and his car was really set up for TT not for AX.
Andrews car is a very well set up AX car not a multipurpose car that most folks have here in Norcal.

Just my $9.14 worth.

How light is his car?

is this the dark car with the white arrow?

brant

I'm just gonna lurk for a while..........

No his car is kinda of "Grabber Blue" with parts of a Chalon kit.
Just about anywhere you look there is fiberglass or no metal, like trunk floors, no motor tin, no glass anywhere
I am not sure of the weight but it must be below 1500# ( only a guess)

In the Arizona Region, PCA, we get to watch this play out at the autocrosses. Andy has his Wild6 with a 3.6L, Brian Willis had a 3.0L, Jack Amen has a 2.7L, Paul has a healthy four and Tim has a fire snorthing 2.0L four with a hot cam and a body that weighs in at about 1800 lbs.

The sixes are posting better times season to date. None of them are too happy though, a Boxster S with Hoosiers has taken ttod two out of three events.

Me, Student Driver, I just sit back in CP with my stock 2.0L and watch them slug it out.

QUOTE (gregrobbins @ Nov 15 2005, 09:52 PM)

In the Arizona Region, PCA, we get to watch this play out at the autocrosses. Andy has his Wild6 with a 3.6L, Brian Willis had a 3.0L, Jack Amen has a 2.7L, Paul has a healthy four and Tim has a fire snorthing 2.0L four with a hot cam and a body that weighs in at about 1800 lbs. The sixes are posting better times season to date. None of them are too happy though, a Boxster S with Hoosiers has taken ttod two out of three events. Me, Student Driver, I just sit back in CP with my stock 2.0L and watch them slug it out.

Greg R.
How many of these guy's do you expect at the AZ Region PCA event this Sunday? I'm planning to try to attend myself and would love to see this in action.

QUOTE

a /4 took top honors for every event they came out to...only time a /6 won was when the /4 car didn't show up

How shall I say...Wrong!!!


KT

if i were building an AX-only car it'd be a /4 for the weight break. look at trekkor's car vs mine (similar level of preparation): he has undoubtedly more power than i do (that six just flat hauls ass), but he doesn't get on the cam until 6k. i got torque.

that said, there's always the Fordahl 914-6....

QUOTE

How many of these guy's do you expect at the AZ Region PCA event this Sunday? I'm planning to try to attend myself and would love to see this in action.

I bet you will see Andy, Brian, Tim and Jack for sure. Paul should be there as he likes the layout. Dave probably will drive up from Tucson. I will be in California and will have to miss this one.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 15 2005, 09:25 PM)

By all means, get a T-4.

JP,
Is that endorsement free of any conflicts of interest?

I watched a 914-6 w/ 260hp (saw the dyno sheet) 2.7 dominate our club for 10 years. No -4 ever came close and many tried. No contest. Same can't be said for a 914-6 2.0, 2.2, 2.4. Those got beat by -4s periodically. But a big 6? All else being the same the six will clean up.

-Ben M.

In Phoenix we have one guy with a Raby 2270, but I can not get him to come out to autocross. I would love to see how that car would do in the hands of an experienced driver compared to the sixes.

As to which is better, driver and suspension have a lot to do with the final outcome. A 2270 built right would have the six guys scratching their heads. Maybe not beat them, but sure give them a run for their money.

Exposure #1

Provasi drives a SIX.

My car was the fastest street legal 914

http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax6/lprax6.htm

KT

I'm going to be biased on this one but if someone built an AX purpose built -6, I think you could do pretty well. In our region, Andrew and Steve have very light, AX only, 4 cyl cars weighing in somewhere between 1500 and 1800 lbs. Add the fact that they are great drivers and they are darn near unbeatable. But, I could get within thousands of a second in AX's to them with my 2.7-6. And with my fat butt and track fixins my car weighed at least 500 to 600lbs heavier. One caveat is that I didn't run this year, so I didn't get to run against Andrew after he dialed in his car.

I'm debating on taking The Beast out in 2007 as an AX killer. Of course, I would put a 2.7/2.8 in there to test my theory that a -6 prepped for AX only would win.....

Anyone have a hot 2.7 they have laying around? I'll share the ride with you in The Beast and we can see what happens.....

Can you tell?.....I vote SIX!

Bill P.

Exposure #2

http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax3/lprax3.htm

This is gonna get boring quick


KT

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Nov 16 2005, 01:47 AM)

I'm going to be biased on this one but if someone built an AX purpose built -6, I think you could do pretty well. In our region, Andrew and Steve have very light, AX only, 4 cyl cars weighing in somewhere between 1500 and 1800 lbs. Add the fact that they are great drivers and they are darn near unbeatable. But, I could get within thousands of a second in AX's to them with my 2.7-6. And with my fat butt and track fixins my car weighed at least 500 to 600lbs heavier. One caveat is that I didn't run this year, so I didn't get to run against Andrew after he dialed in his car. I'm debating on taking The Beast out in 2007 as an AX killer. Of course, I would put a 2.7/2.8 in there to test my theory that a -6 prepped for AX only would win..... Anyone have a hot 2.7 they have laying around? I'll share the ride with you in The Beast and we can see what happens..... Can you tell?.....I vote SIX! Bill P.

I would respectfully question those weight numbers,


I had a roofless, winshieldless, race car with a cage.

fiberglass hoods, fenders, and bumpers...

Wet weight without driver 1750.

I personally think that the six is the ticket...but you need to build a purpose built 2,2 or just a little bit bigger...

It would produce much more torque than a /4

I drive a /4 btw

Rich

Oh and the 3 TTOD at RR-PCA this year by 914-6's...
Two of which were by me


KT

Britt...nice

Hi Rich,

How much weight did you get off the engine? I know Andrew took off his fan and housing. Their team pushes the car to the line and start it only when they are about to get the flag, then shut her down. Purpose built for AX.

You may be right about those numbers. I cut alot of metal out of my car and still couldn't get it below a wet weight of 2150 lbs.

So I guess I was only giving up 400 lbs...

Bill P.

QUOTE

It would produce much more torque than a /4

Thats a very general statement...

What /4 are you comparing it to? At what RPM??

I have a couple of 2316s about making over 200lbs of torque at only 3500 RPM, and thats not even running race gas... Getting that much power to the ground has been an issue for more than one of them. I have one of these engines being used in a drift car in Europe and it works incredibly well just because it DOES NOT stick!

As far as weight goes- Adding a set of Nickies will take 22 pounds off the engine immediately!

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Nov 15 2005, 11:08 PM)

... Their team pushes the car to the line and start it only when they are about to get the flag, then shut her down. Purpose built for AX...

Which I find boooooring. The fact that you can drive your car to an autocross, race, then drive it back home (or it's at the very least street-legal if you trailer it to events) is why I like autocross. When it gets to this level (drag racing included) all the cars are just about the same, only under a different skin and money is too much of the equation (which is why it's nice to have different classes).

QUOTE

Which I find boooooring.

Exactly.

None of these lightwieght winners will be out enjoying the backroads on a 2.5 hour drive the next day.

I trailer...for comfort


KT

the initial question was about "compareable" cars. you guys are all waaaaay off base ...

super lightweight /4, stockish /6, build up /6 ... all comparing apples with crowbars ...

two *identical* cars, same driver, one with a built up /4, one with a built up /6, SAME hp, same gearing, same everything, for ease of comparison, let's say warmed over 2.0L ...

in my humble experience, the /4 would be quicker at the AX due to the different torque/rpm/hp band than the /6 ...

that was the initial question, that was my initial answer, and i'm still sticking to it ...

everything else posted here was pretty much useless drivel as it ignored the actual question he asked ...
Andy

ouch...I stand corrected.....

I'm with JP....by all means...go with a T4.



Bill P.

aka...drivelmeisterwannabe

QUOTE (Britain Smith @ Nov 15 2005, 09:02 PM)

I know this guy...he is looking to purchase a 914...wants to be really fast on the AX course...and can't decide between an original 6 (or conversion) w/ 2.7L (or some sort of uprated motor) or a Raby (or similar) four cylinder. Putting the discussion on equal playing grounds, lets say that both chassis are identical, which would be faster on the AX course? This is assuming a well built chassis, with a cage, upgraded suspension, hoosiers (or similar) tires, etc. -Britain

So a 2.7 -6 or a Jake built -4. What size -4?

I think one of Jake's 2316s would slap a 2.7 -6.

This is all very interesting but, with equally prepared cars, the issue is really the driver and even if you use the same driver, then there's the issue of familiarity with the cars, then conditions. You can keep finding more and more variables. Great garage racing granted but, it's really a question with many answers.

If he wants TTOD, tell your friend to pick a car, spend some money, then spend some more money, etc. and if he can't buy success then learn to drive, then learn some more, etc. If he's smart he'll do that in the opposite order. To somebody watching it kind of looks like a cat chasing it's tail. Not my cup of tea!

I won't ever be a front runner but I sure do enjoy seeing myself getting better. And, I enjoy the people and the cars.

Dave

Well, I got to jump in here. Not sure of the car in the virtual 914Cup. how many are 4's Hassan drove my car and has 2 TTOD's in SCCA Street Mod 2 I drove the car 186 miles one way changed tires raced and then happily drove home.

My 4 doesn't make much over 105 at the crank and maybe less.

So compare apples to apples Both Trekkor's car and mine are SM-2 any RABY motor puts you in SM-2. any REAL stock 6 runs A stock real stock 4' run C stock and Then D street prepared.

Weight limit for SM-2 is 1900 lbs. If you are under that you go to Something MOD. and you better be packing some big HP. So I would hope a 1500 pound car would clean up pretty handily......

Anyway I'd run any of you SM-2 guys and be willing to swap drivers to see who can make which car faster. I know I got the driver (just ain't me)

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Nov 15 2005, 11:01 PM)

if i were building an AX-only car it'd be a /4 for the weight break. look at trekkor's car vs mine (similar level of preparation): he has undoubtedly more power than i do (that six just flat hauls ass), but he doesn't get on the cam until 6k. i got torque. that said, there's always the Fordahl 914-6....

I have watched and raced against the Fordahl six and hhmmm, no contest!

Jake would have to make this a personal goal to back someone who could take it to that kind of level.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 15 2005, 11:47 PM)

Exposure #2 http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax3/lprax3.htm This is gonna get boring quick KT

Uhhhh, Trekkor. How come Nathan beat you by more than 2 seconds? And Andy beat you by more than 1 second? Looks to me like Exposure #2 shows the fours are beating your six??

QUOTE

fours are beating your six

that's true, we had a great time, too.

I was showing a SIX at TTOD over fast FOURS...


KT

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Nov 16 2005, 07:37 AM)

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Nov 15 2005, 11:01 PM) if i were building an AX-only car it'd be a /4 for the weight break.  look at trekkor's car vs mine (similar level of preparation):  he has undoubtedly more power than i do (that six just flat hauls ass), but he doesn't get on the cam until 6k.  i got torque.   that said, there's always the Fordahl 914-6.... I have watched and raced against the Fordahl six and hhmmm, no contest! Jake would have to make this a personal goal to back someone who could take it to that kind of level.

I already have the car/driver.... He is a member of the board here and has been talking to me for the last year about a certain engine- it would be the largest displacement engine that has ever left my shop for a customer....

If I wasn't so peeved at the 914 world right now I'd probably give him a deal and Git R done!

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 16 2005, 09:55 AM)

I was showing a SIX at TTOD over fast FOURS...

Yes, but that is comparing one of the best prepared 914-6's (many time PCA AutoX national champion), to a couple of ill-prepared 914-4 street cars. Not quite fair.

Like Nathan said, a comparison between your car and his is much more interesting.

Well, this discussion got a little out of hand...but I expected that.

Andy hit it right, I am asking about equally prepared cars. Basically, take a well prepared chassis like I mentioned (hoosiers, sorted suspension, cage, etc.) and do a sway between a hopped-up 2.7L six and compare it to a Raby-prepared 2.3L. Lets say that both engines put out a healthy 200ft-lbs of torque. In this case both cars would be the same weight, minus engine. Granted, there will be a few suspension set-up differences between the different engine configurations, but leave that out for this discussion. Now...which set-up would have the upper hand?

Also, how much does a hopped-up 2.7L engine cost to have built? IIRC, it is in the same price range as a Raby engine (7K-12K)...someone correct me if I am wrong.

You can look at AX results all day long, but if the competition didn't show up then your results are null. In other words, showing that you are TTOD at a certain autocross is not really that valid unless there is a car there that is comparable to yours to compete against. Heck, my 1.7L basically stock teener took top-5 or so at the last two AX events here...

-Britain

It has a TON to do with the way both engines are prepped.. AX engines thrive from high port velocities, a ton of torque but then are complicated by those traits demanding a broad powerband to minimize shifting primarily... In this regard the 4 or the 6 need the same internal attention.

My old Hybrid 2316 would have been one hell of an AX engine, turning onto any back road I could leave the car in 3rd gear and absolutely smoke the tiresfor a solid 50 feet- Thats real usable torque right where it needs to be.

The other thing to remember is what happens when each engine breaks??? My engine has a large initial cost, but the parts to repair it are dirt cheap compared to a six... Also there is nothing that can't be repaired in a weekend with the -4, its definately not that simple with a six.... and certainly not that cheap.

Heck one of my F production racers with a full SCCA legal 1800cc engine took TTOD at quite a few events last year, and that car weighs 2020 pounds and has literally ZERO power below 5,500 RPM... The car is far from built for AX, but he has at least 5 TTOD to date that I know of... ury914 knows him..

Never forget that luck has a lot to do with any sort of racing, and some guys just are not lucky, even with plenty of HP!

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 16 2005, 10:40 AM)

Never forget that luck has a lot to do with any sort of racing, and some guys just are not lucky, even with plenty of HP!

hey hey now, that hurt my feelings ...

Andy

Must be the truth then...LOL

Here's the a/x where Nathan and I had our best battle.
http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax5/lprax5.htm

He ended up getting me by .25 second

Were both on identical Hoosiers and similar suspension mods.

He ran a higher compression 2056 on carbs to my 2.0 SIX on carbs.

We had a blast.


Next year, Buddy.


KT

QUOTE

Never forget that luck has a lot to do with any sort of racing, and some guys just are not lucky, even with plenty of HP!

Like how I broke my C/V the first autox run that I ran... video in my link...

lol

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 16 2005, 10:56 AM)

Here's the a/x where Nathan and I had our best battle. http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax5/lprax5.htm

Now that's what I'm talking about! Nathan and I had a very similar battle early in the season. Swapping best times back and forth every time we went out. Most fun I've had autocrossing in years!

Demick

IMHO two equally prepped chassis, with good suspension setups dialed in for the relevant engine package.

It'll come down to a couple of things.
First: Driver
Second: Weight, specifically power to weight.
Third: Course, design may favour one over other.
Fourth: Power delivery, to much hp / lb delivery could overwhelm Driver.

I had this choice & plumbed with a 6 cause everything i heard about 4's indicated they we're hand grenades. Now i know better & would instantly plump for a Jake motor. But for my intended purpose, AX, DE & some street i wanted reliability and an easy car to wrench on myself.

If you do the math (power to weight ratio) and have a good understanding about how suspension and respective weight and balance works in a 914 and all other things being equal - a four will always be superior in an AutoX 914.

Of course the only way to prove this is to build a car specifically for AutoX, like Andrew’s, Steve’s or Bill’s, run the four for half the season, then switch to a six.

Of course, whatever the outcome, either the four or six folks will complain that it wasn’t a fair contest, given the differences in power/torque of the respective engines.

But my “fantasy” contest would be based upon the ratio determined by power to weight, i.e., both the four and six would be built to have the same net power to weight ratio (when in the 914) and would be driven (the BIGGEST VARIABLE) by the same driver.

So not withstanding my fantasy contest, about the only way to prove the point is to build a competitive light weight car, with a modern technology engine (Jake Raby) and go test the theory both locally and nationally. BTW this is what I'm doing.

Also given that the modern technology engines seem to be more reliable, I also believe it will be interesting to see what happens at the track. I have no doubt that a hot four can be built to be competitive with the sixes, but the question is how long it will last?

Of course if history is a lesson, I guess Rich Bontempi would have something to say about the track, given the number of sixes he blew off during his tenure.

This is all a bit absurd, really.....no need to get excited. If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it.
At this years Parade the best in the West will be decided. I figure that the TTOD guy will be a 914 & a six. Any hotdog 4 bangers than don't show up are just wannabes.

QUOTE (Randal @ Nov 16 2005, 11:39 AM)

If you do the math (power to weight ratio) and have a good understanding about how suspension and respective weight and balance works in a 914 and all other things being equal - a four will always be superior in an AutoX 914. Of course the only way to prove this is to build a car specifically for AutoX, like Andrew’s, Steve’s or Bill’s, run the four for half the season, then switch to a six. Of course, whatever the outcome, either the four or six folks will complain that it wasn’t a fair contest, given the differences in power/torque of the respective engines. But my “fantasy” contest would be based upon the ratio determined by power to weight, i.e., both the four and six would be built to have the same net power to weight ratio (when in the 914) and would be driven (the BIGGEST VARIABLE) by the same driver. So not withstanding my fantasy contest, about the only way to prove the point is to build a competitive light weight car, with a modern technology engine (Jake Raby) and go test the theory both locally and nationally. BTW this is what I'm doing. Also given that the modern technology engines seem to be more reliable, I also believe it will be interesting to see what happens at the track. I have no doubt that a hot four can be built to be competitive with the sixes, but the question is how long it will last? Of course if history is a lesson, I guess Rich Bontempi would have something to say about the track, given the number of sixes he blew off during his tenure.

And I wonder just who the guy is that wants that ultimate powerplant I mentioned above a couple posts ago???

Randal- I think its time..

But I can't get it done before mid 2006 at best and thats even with me making it a high priority.

Oh yeah- it will be using my MassIVe heads...

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 16 2005, 11:52 AM)

This is all a bit absurd, really.....no need to get excited. If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it. At this years Parade the best in the West will be decided. I figure that the TTOD guy will be a 914 & a six. Any hotdog 4 bangers than don't show up are just wannabes.

QUOTE

If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it.

It's not BS it's math.

And by the way any time you want to get into a competitive region, come down and race against us.