If you're waiting till that motor breaks, you will be there for a while. Has anyone mentioned the reliability factor here?...probably. It can be a major factor....unless you have real deep pockets or really like working on your car while everyone else is out AXing.

There must be a bunch of folks that have swapped out their 6 to get a 4.....considering all the advantages of the 4 stated here. Step right up, and tell us about it.....like: How much didja get for your used oil tank

I know I have been working too much when I miss a post like this one! Better late then never!

For Autox I'm a believer that weight is the biggest issue. If your friend is going for relatively stock car I dont think you can beat a nice six for overall flexibility.

If he is going lieghtweight racer a strong 4 can be an advantage. In tight courses you really dont need the power of a 6. In fact the power can be a problem if not properly applied. I'd always opt for a featherwieght that I have to thrash rather than a heavier car that has unlimited power.

I think my wimpy, but lightweight 1.8 has taken down a few sixes in the past season, including trekkors on more technical courses. Once a course opens up I'm a dead duck.

Ah.....another hopeful four searching for a place he might have an advantage. Good luck.

At the Bremertion AX, the fours would beat the six powered cars on the courses set up with lots of tight gates AND going downhill. (most of the time Chris D in his early 1.7 car). Going uphill, the six cars rule unless its David Saids big four (2.4L) red car as that will kick all but Fordals six car.

Car weight and low rpm torque figure into the debate. A 2.4L four with around 160-170hp and 175lbs of torque can beat the 2.7-3.0L six cars depending on if they are basically setup the same with wide tires and such.
Only a Jake engine can last as long as a six but thats 11-19K for the engine!:shocked:

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 4 2005, 07:51 AM)

At the Bremertion AX, the fours would beat the six powered cars on the courses set up with lots of tight gates AND going downhill. (most of the time Chris D in his early 1.7 car). Going uphill, the six cars rule unless its David Saids big four (2.4L) red car as that will kick all but Fordals six car. Car weight and low rpm torque figure into the debate. A 2.4L four with around 160-170hp and 175lbs of torque can beat the 2.7-3.0L six cars depending on if they are basically setup the same with wide tires and such. Only a Jake engine can last as long as a six but thats 11-19K for the engine!:shocked:

Geoff:
Where do you get your material? Good humor, but ......

I watch the results of the PNWR AXs.
No 914 has beaten Eric Fry in his 6er this year and, IIRC, none did last year or the year before.

He routinely beats the GTU 914s by a couple seconds.
Dave Said's old car comes close sometimes....they both run in GTO. He also kicks my ass (but it's his "house"), so they have company.

was last year dude....I haven't had a running car this whole freakin year. Eric Fry has also been improving his car/drivin skills.

ChrisD bought the Saidmobile but I haven't seen him drive it. When Said drove he killed Fry.......

dis car

I'm aware of the car and it did run this year....& got beat.


And the other 914/4s?

If ya wanna brag on something, try Jim Daniels in his 1.8L
Miata. He regularly runs in the top 5 up there with at least 2 TTODs. That is a legal SCCA CSP car. You want underdogs?
That's against all the Porsche hot dogs in their house. Like Eric, he drives the hell out of it.

Some of it has to do with the driver....even dying of cancer, David Said would rip off 2nd best time of the day......beaten by the Fordal six. Loved watching the faces of those Microsoft guys with their 996's going "WTF?" Why do we get beat by 30 yr old 914's?


I do think most times a six car will beat a four car, its just there are exceptions! HP is nice, driving the snot outta a car is the ticket.
If you had two cars set up nearly the same but
one was a 200hp six
one was a 200hp four

The four with the 100lbs less of engine should have an advantage


Seems like this is pissing you off, JP..hehe

especially since the 200hp four guy is gonna have a waay lighter wallet!

Autocrossing is fun but, really, the only roads I'm aware of that are technical like a auto-x course are either school zones* or coastal highways -- both of which can hurt you one way or another in a very negative way.

So it's fun to see how a car handles but ultimately it's the open road where the particular car will shine. Unless, of course, the car was originally sold to be an auto-x car only In this real-world situation I would rather have the 'heavier' 914-6. And when I can afford it I'll likely transform my less expensive 914-4 to a 6er. I guess I should state that I'm basing my opinion on the great GT cars where they were designed for open roads and not scrambling for a parking space at the mall during Christmas rush hour

Alpha Romeo, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mazaratti, Porsche...the great GT builders IMO.



*Okay, so the "school zone" was a little sick. Sorry if I offended anyone. Living in a residential 'hood w/kids next to an elementary school I do drive slow.

yeah, but this topic is 914/4vs914/6 Autocrossing......not in a school zone.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 4 2005, 10:21 AM)

yeah, but this topic is 914/4vs914/6 Autocrossing......not in a school zone.

Glad you're paying attention.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 4 2005, 09:39 AM)

Seems like this is pissing you off, JP..hehe

Not pissed, it's just a jerk-knee reaction to bullshit

There is no need to set up hypothetical situations for a 4 to beat a 6. There are 2 very fast 4 bangers that regularly run down in NoCal. SteveN kicked my ass when I went down there. He showed me his mettle by running against the SCCA hot dogs & did us proud. He would be a D Mod car in SCCA so he should beat a F Prepared car(..but not by that much ) as would Mr Byholder... I think.

Neither has 200hp, me thinks. They are well developed, very light, and very well driven. Their owners had the guts & the smarts to build & race them. *THAT* is what it takes.

Since the best in the West will prolly be at the Parade this year, we'll see who gets bragging rights. We all assume a 914 will be TTOD, eh?

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Dec 4 2005, 09:42 AM)

No 914 has beaten Eric Fry in his 6er this year and, IIRC, none did last year or the year before.

you're still comparing noodles with ground beef ...

was there any 914-4 competing that was "comparable" to Eric Fry's car?
Andy

The Red one. Big 4 and a ton of money spent on it by a very good builder.

Eric's car has a carbed 74, 2.7 "Normal" engine of maybe 160 hp..& home built, IIRC....but Eric knows the value of tires.

Both run in the same class....what more ya want? RTFB. Knives at gunfights don't get it done

The 4 banger guys keep talkin about comparable....why?
They seem to want a weight advantage......cause the 4 banger motor & ancilaries weigh less....duh. A WAG at my car's weight would be 1850. Should I add weight or make some 4 pooper guy build one 100 lbs lighter? It's been done as I stated above and that's the way it should be, me thinks.......easy to talk, hard to do, eh?

there's a ole 82 Jetta that goes faster......

I haven't seen whats running this year but no one was running as big as tires as Eric Fry cept JP. Dave Ellison is running a big four now but still is on 205's last I saw. Hell, in GTU the 914's can't even beat a 924!


Well, this coming years Blair is itchin to get out there and I'll be pit crew until the shoulder I blew out heals. We'll see what my 2056 can do now with some mods.

The Red car is running in MOD vs GTO. Eric Fry is one hellva driver too! ChrisD is good but.....
I have seen Eric jump in a 914/4 and turn in some killer times.....in GTU or GTO I don't think we can run FG hoods/decks and all that stuff. I'll have to read the rules again.
GTU -no flares,tires no bigger than 225
GTO- flare ok
No four bangers are running up here then in GTO so I can't compare them.

Like I said, given a 4 with, ok, 170hp vs a six with 170hp and the same setups, tires, etc 100lbs is alot.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Dec 4 2005, 02:49 PM)

4 banger guys keep talkin about comparable....why?

you seem to forget britains original question ...

same car, same driver, same course. what would be quicker, a /4 or a /6, provided both engines have a comparable HP output ...


he did *not* ask if Tom Provasi in his build-up /6 could spank his fairly stock 1.7L /4 ...
Andy

PS: in regards to britains original question, my bet is still on the /4, for reasons stated in my first post some 3487 pages earlier in this thread ...

as I have said, the four's usually have more down low torque at low rpms. The stock sixes I have driven were barely equal to my 4 at low rpms witha seat of the pants test. At 6000rpms no comparison....
plus the 100lbs is still an extra 100lbs you are carrying around. I have only driven AX once with a passenger and it was so weird......"what the hell is up with the car?" "oh yeah, you are sitting there".

I'da got back quicker, but I was out working on my car...making it more better so's I can go faster next season.
My driving is hopeless, so I need a lotta help from the car.
I'll find some young stud to co drive so he can be the hero AXer and I'll keep the tiars warm.

*IF* you look back in this thread, I said that a car doesn't care where it's HP comes from......thus it's a toss up.

If you want "Special Olympics" rules and 100 lbs extra on the 6
the 4 pooper "should" win...So, prove it or it's like arguing over how many angels can sit on the head of a pin.

I have (just once) set my best time of the day with 200 lbs settin' next to me. I carry passengers all the time and mostly I don't notice the weight.

So, Andy. Next year when ya got your 3.6L all hotted up & running and some schmuck comes up and says " I'd beat ya if I had as much HP as you", what are you gonna say?
"Oh, yes, sorry....I'll go pull a couple plug wires"
or
"Step back son, ya bother me"

I worked on mine all day yesterday.....

but the car does care where the torque curve is....

"Special Olympics" rules?? sixes carry more weight with their heavier engines and all that oil sloshin around.

In a stockish four you definately feel that extra 200lbs sitting next to you.

"I'll find some young stud to co drive so he can be the hero AXer and I'll keep the tiars warm" thats why I keep Blair around. To embarss my ass on the AX course.

I just don't want to six my car, but the 72 car probably will get a six in it one day.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 4 2005, 05:16 PM)

but the car does care where the torque curve is....

that was my point all along ...

"Hey Baby, wanna see my Torque Curve?"
Andy

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 4 2005, 04:16 PM)

. "Special Olympics" rules?? sixes carry more weight with their heavier engines and all that oil sloshin around.

I've already semi-conceeded the point by the Special Olympics rules.

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Dec 4 2005, 04:25 PM)

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 4 2005, 05:16 PM) but the car does care where the torque curve is.... that was my point all along ... "Hey Baby, wanna see my Torque Curve?" Andy

Sure, that's all that matters.
Ask the Honda S2000 guys that kick ass in A Stock with all that down low grunt they gots.

Those guys killed me on the straight on track day, but they were in my way on the corners. They asked me why I was flashing my headlites at them afterwards....I told them cuz you was going to slow in the corners, speed up!!

In A stock they have way 'mo modern cars Stock