914/6 vs. 914/4 AX Performance, Heated Disscussion Within Options

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 16 2005, 10:40 AM)

Never forget that luck has a lot to do with any sort of racing, and some guys just are not lucky, even with plenty of HP!

hey hey now, that hurt my feelings ...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/av-943.gif) Andy

[Jake Raby]

Must be the truth then...LOL

[Trekkor]

Here's the a/x where Nathan and I had our best battle.
http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax5/lprax5.htm

He ended up getting me by .25 second (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

Were both on identical Hoosiers and similar suspension mods.

He ran a higher compression 2056 on carbs to my 2.0 SIX on carbs.

We had a blast.


Next year, Buddy.


KT

[Andyrew]

QUOTE

Never forget that luck has a lot to do with any sort of racing, and some guys just are not lucky, even with plenty of HP!

Like how I broke my C/V the first autox run that I ran... video in my link...

lol

[Demick]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 16 2005, 10:56 AM)

Here's the a/x where Nathan and I had our best battle. http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax5/lprax5.htm

Now that's what I'm talking about! Nathan and I had a very similar battle early in the season. Swapping best times back and forth every time we went out. Most fun I've had autocrossing in years!

Demick

[Rough_Rider]

IMHO two equally prepped chassis, with good suspension setups dialed in for the relevant engine package.

It'll come down to a couple of things.
First: Driver
Second: Weight, specifically power to weight.
Third: Course, design may favour one over other.
Fourth: Power delivery, to much hp / lb delivery could overwhelm Driver.

I had this choice & plumbed with a 6 cause everything i heard about 4's indicated they we're hand grenades. Now i know better & would instantly plump for a Jake motor. But for my intended purpose, AX, DE & some street i wanted reliability and an easy car to wrench on myself.

[Randal]

If you do the math (power to weight ratio) and have a good understanding about how suspension and respective weight and balance works in a 914 and all other things being equal - a four will always be superior in an AutoX 914.

Of course the only way to prove this is to build a car specifically for AutoX, like Andrew’s, Steve’s or Bill’s, run the four for half the season, then switch to a six.

Of course, whatever the outcome, either the four or six folks will complain that it wasn’t a fair contest, given the differences in power/torque of the respective engines.

But my “fantasy” contest would be based upon the ratio determined by power to weight, i.e., both the four and six would be built to have the same net power to weight ratio (when in the 914) and would be driven (the BIGGEST VARIABLE) by the same driver.

So not withstanding my fantasy contest, about the only way to prove the point is to build a competitive light weight car, with a modern technology engine (Jake Raby) and go test the theory both locally and nationally. BTW this is what I'm doing.

Also given that the modern technology engines seem to be more reliable, I also believe it will be interesting to see what happens at the track. I have no doubt that a hot four can be built to be competitive with the sixes, but the question is how long it will last?

Of course if history is a lesson, I guess Rich Bontempi would have something to say about the track, given the number of sixes he blew off during his tenure.

[J P Stein]

This is all a bit absurd, really.....no need to get excited. If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it.
At this years Parade the best in the West will be decided. I figure that the TTOD guy will be a 914 & a six. Any hotdog 4 bangers than don't show up are just wannabes. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE (Randal @ Nov 16 2005, 11:39 AM)

If you do the math (power to weight ratio) and have a good understanding about how suspension and respective weight and balance works in a 914 and all other things being equal - a four will always be superior in an AutoX 914. Of course the only way to prove this is to build a car specifically for AutoX, like Andrew’s, Steve’s or Bill’s, run the four for half the season, then switch to a six. Of course, whatever the outcome, either the four or six folks will complain that it wasn’t a fair contest, given the differences in power/torque of the respective engines. But my “fantasy” contest would be based upon the ratio determined by power to weight, i.e., both the four and six would be built to have the same net power to weight ratio (when in the 914) and would be driven (the BIGGEST VARIABLE) by the same driver. So not withstanding my fantasy contest, about the only way to prove the point is to build a competitive light weight car, with a modern technology engine (Jake Raby) and go test the theory both locally and nationally. BTW this is what I'm doing. Also given that the modern technology engines seem to be more reliable, I also believe it will be interesting to see what happens at the track. I have no doubt that a hot four can be built to be competitive with the sixes, but the question is how long it will last? Of course if history is a lesson, I guess Rich Bontempi would have something to say about the track, given the number of sixes he blew off during his tenure.

And I wonder just who the guy is that wants that ultimate powerplant I mentioned above a couple posts ago???

Randal- I think its time..

But I can't get it done before mid 2006 at best and thats even with me making it a high priority.

Oh yeah- it will be using my MassIVe heads...

[Randal]

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 16 2005, 11:52 AM)

This is all a bit absurd, really.....no need to get excited. If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it. At this years Parade the best in the West will be decided. I figure that the TTOD guy will be a 914 & a six. Any hotdog 4 bangers than don't show up are just wannabes. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

QUOTE

If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it.

It's not BS it's math.

And by the way any time you want to get into a competitive region, come down and race against us.

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (Randal @ Nov 16 2005, 12:04 PM)

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 16 2005, 11:52 AM) This is all a bit absurd, really.....no need to get excited. If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it. At this years Parade the best in the West will be decided. I figure that the TTOD guy will be a 914 & a six. Any hotdog 4 bangers than don't show up are just wannabes. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) QUOTE If you believe in your own bullshit, build a car & run it. It's not BS it's math. And by the way any time you want to get into a competitive region, come down and race against us.

I've been there, you weren't. Steve was and kicked my ass. He has bragging rights, you have nuthin'.

[nine14cats]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

Benchracing season has begun!

Can't wait for winter to be over... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

I always enjoy the 4 vs 6 debate.

Bill P.

[nebreitling]

i gotta go with randal on this one. even given identical power curves, redlines, gearboxes, etc., and given exactly equal power:weight ratios, i'd go with the four. less weight over the rear means better weight distribution overall. by a relatively small margin, but it exists.

i imagine that parade will spin out another /6 winner. i don't think that there are comparable /4 cars to compete against -- i just believe that they'd have a theoretical advantage. keep in mind that blyholder and nieslony are both running quite mild, small fours; nothing like jake's engines.

the one time i ran against provasi, i was only 1.5 seconds off his time. Ahhhhndy was only 2.5" off his time.

http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax3/lprax3.htm

this is probably a little unfair -- Provasi very well may have been having an off day -- but my car is still at least 2100 lbs with me in it (all steel, narrow-bodied) and i am making at most 130 hp running 205 hoosiers.. god only knows what the specs of his car are, but it looks scary as hell.

that said, i still kinda want a six -- just not for (or because of) AX.

[Root_Werks]

More wieght = harder to change dirrection. So if you took a 120hp 914-4 and a 120hp 914-6 the 914-4 would probably get a better time because it would be a little more nimble. Apples to apples. Duh.

Still doesn't change the fact when you come driving up in a 914-6 of just about any flavor, all the 914-4 guys usually(note I used the word usually) come over enviuosly oogling over your car. Most 4 guys want a six. Just the way it is.

[Jake Raby]

The other -4 guys that don't want a six like doing more with less and wanna spank your SIX ass...

I personally don't care about spanking another 914, I'd rather anihilate a 911 with my Bug- But I don't Autocross-

[J P Stein]

Basically what you guys want is some way to build a competive 4 by limiting the 6 to *your* HP range.....that you can phrase rules to your advantage doesn't surprise a bit. Your "givens"are not real world. Even a good little 2.0L 6 can pull 200+ hp.

A car doesn't care what engine gives it power.
At a 10:1 lbs to hp, it's gonna be a toss up....live with it. Whoever gets a good run is gonna win......or whichever car happens to be under the same driver on a given run.

Randle:
We were typing at the same time. My post that seemed to upset you wasn't directed at you personally or I'd have quoted you....you got quoted in the next one.

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Nov 16 2005, 02:50 PM)

the one time i ran against provasi, i was only 1.5 seconds off his time.  Ahhhhndy was only 2.5" off his time.

Nathan:
What do you think it takes to make up that 1.5 sec?
You were driving the hell outta your car, right?
Little more tire?
Little less weight?
Little more HP?
Some Penske shox?
All of the above?

Here's the difference if you were at the Parade (or SCCA). I ain't knocking your efforts, but this is real life. The difference between a national level and the rest of us.(edited for television (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif))

Driver Car Class Run 1 Run 2 Run 3
1 Tom Provasi 914 Z 38.585 37.593 37.241 2 Brad McClure NA Fun 40.750 38.864 39.052
3 Nathan Breitling 914 40.730 50.904 43.077

[Trekkor]

Next year will be fun, won't it?

I'm just wondering if "this guy" Britain knows, is Britain (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

Oh yeah, let's talk about the money... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)

Let's say you want a FOUR that puts down the same power as a 2.7 SIX.

How much will that cost and how many seasons before tear down?

I think that's a fair question.


KT

[airsix]

Everybody keeps saying "if this" and "if that". I look at it from a staticitician's point of view. People like to win. They will use the best tool they can afford that insures the highest likelyhood of producing a win. More wins are secured with a six than with a four. From a statistical viewpoint a six is more competative. If a four was as likely or more likely to produce a win then that's what everybody would be running and winning with.

Another thought on power to weight ratio: If the car weighs 2,200 with a four and 2,300 with a six then the six only needs 11 hp more than the four to maintain the same power to weight ratio. Jake's 2563cc motor makes 200hp*. A warmed-over 2.7 makes 225hp - or 14 hp more than needed to maintain the same power to weight ratio.

*Not meant as a jab at Jake. I like Jake and I think he makes the best typeIV motors on the planet.

-Ben M.

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (drgchapman @ Nov 15 2005, 09:39 PM)

I'm just gonna lurk for a while.......... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

It's this guy (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
Gary:
I've changed my mind, six's sux. Get a 4 pooper.
You're a better driver than I. I'm beatable....really.
All ya need is a little more sumthin'. Even one of Jakes cheep motors ought to do it........the pricey jobs would be overkill.....he's got a slot open, ya ain't got a hair on your ass iff'n ya don't go for it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)