High output Type IV or Subaru Options

[jhadler]

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 21 2005, 11:58 AM)

What does D-mod look like? My motor is just shy of 2.0L.... Oh - and good points again (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

D-Mod? Just like E-Mod except with smaller motors... In other words... A tube framed lotus Europa with a race built Ztec 1999 cc motor... Yeah, push-rod suspension, big slicks, and a I think a 1500 lb minimum weight... Or was it 1250?...

Just as nuts, and in some ways worse. Because people try to get more power out of really small engines, where in E-Mod people jsut slap a 350 crate motor in there and can be happy for a while. Until they feel the need to add a supercharger that is... Really, D and E mod are nutso classes. SM and SM2 are too, they just haven't been around long enough for many people to build cars to the limit of the rules...

-Josh2

[Brett W]

I am well aware of what these motors make in stock. The numbers I am referring to are far from stock. Will you get these motors for the listed 5K? NO, but the potential to do this is there, where the stock T4 can't even come close.

Therare motors out there making big power, are they cheap, no. I know hondas that are driven on the street making 600+. Are they daily driven like that, No they turn the boost down and run them in the four hundred range. HP cost money whether it is NA or Turbo. I know NA hondas making 250 at the wheels froma 1.8 litre engine, I have seen 2.0s making 300 at the flywheel. Yes they are expensive but they are street trim motors. And street cars.

Sub'ys can make that kind of power. I can get 400 on a stock motor with upgrades in turbo and fuel management.

[fiid]

QUOTE (jhadler @ Dec 21 2005, 12:06 PM)

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 21 2005, 11:58 AM) What does D-mod look like? My motor is just shy of 2.0L.... Oh - and good points again (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) D-Mod? Just like E-Mod except with smaller motors... In other words... A tube framed lotus Europa with a race built Ztec 1999 cc motor... Yeah, push-rod suspension, big slicks, and a I think a 1500 lb minimum weight... Or was it 1250?... Just as nuts, and in some ways worse. Because people try to get more power out of really small engines, where in E-Mod people jsut slap a 350 crate motor in there and can be happy for a while. Until they feel the need to add a supercharger that is... Really, D and E mod are nutso classes. SM and SM2 are too, they just haven't been around long enough for many people to build cars to the limit of the rules... -Josh2

It does seem to be difficult to get competitive there.

Having said that - at least you can take part in the event and get some seat time. The PCA just takes it's ball and goes home.

[jhadler]

Yep. SCCA has a place for pretty much everything under the sun. Not neccessarilly a -competitive- place, but a place nonetheless...

But if competition isn't a desire, then it doesn't matter what class you're in, just drive it and have fun!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

-Josh2

[VaccaRabite]

Hi Brett,
I'm not flaming you, but I am disagreeing with your premise.

I see very high numbers passed around this forum for the Scoob engines. And I know that they can make that power with enough money. But those engines really push what could be considered a street engine, and simply arn't attainable by most people. The runtime of a Subaru EJ25T 600 HP motor (and also a 300HP NA motor) is measured in hours, and the cost is similar to a very highly built Raby motor, or a big Porsche 6. Its not within the scope of what we are talking about.

As you said, a better up and down pipe, better engine management bigger turbo and some other go fast goddies can put the EJ20T into the high 200s and low 300s, and the same can put the STi motor into the mid-high 300s. And it can be done without selling your first born. But even that is pushing the scope of this topic, as it woud place it well outside the $5K area. For the NA motor, there are not that many bolt on options - excluding spraying - that will put it past the 190HP mark without some serious $$$. NO2 will do it, but then you have a whole other ball of twine to deal with.

Where the Subaru motor shines is in the stock or near stock format. Its cheap, pretty much bullet proof, emission friendly, and has 100 HP more then the McMark/Raby T4 $5K offering - while still being in stock format, and without the added weight of the SMC or P6.

Its an attractive offering, that I am sure a lot of owners are very interested in.

A lot of other owners, including myself, would feel that such a conversion eats away at the soul of the car. Personally, if I wanted an older hot watebox, I would have bought a BMW 2002tii, or a Datsun 240Z (both cars that still produce drool puddles for me when I see them - and always will).

Zach

[ewdysar]

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Dec 21 2005, 12:01 PM)

If you give renegade a car a chk for $5K , oh and a motor(more $)!  will they give you back a completed conversion? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)

Nope, the prices quoted are for kits. You'd have to turn all the wrenches yourself. The RH stuff would set you back just over $3k for the bolt in parts and radiator set-up. There's probably another $500 or $800 in random stuff, leaving about $1k for the engine. YMMV

Eric

[914werke]

So now I think were back on the beam.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)
After taking a OT turn, ..so there is no KIT that will provide a Rad setup w/o cuting up the car, yet.
RH Rad kit is frt trk mounted correct?
So for $5K In one hand we have a complete new warrentied(?) engine (albeit with fewer pony's than the 20yrs newer scooby technology), that Im sure most of would feel comfortable simply bolting in and attaching some tubes and wires.
On the other hand we have a used motor (?) Kit parts and or fab skills which may or may not necessatate cutting up your car ....
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chair.gif)

[TonyAKAVW]

QUOTE

so there is no KIT that will provide a Rad setup w/o cuting up the car, yet. RH Rad kit is frt trk mounted correct?

Correct. No one makes a kit where the radiator is in the engine bay. But I think its practical that someone COULD make a kit with engine bay cooling that would be in the $5000 neighborhood, with engine. It wouldn't make much profit, but I figure it could be done.

-Tony

[Mueller]

I'm sorry(?), but I had to vote for the disposable Suby motor (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

...for $5K, one should be able to have one heck of a conversion since the engine alone is less than one-fifth of that price....

[tracks914]

What would it cost to drop a 2.4 T E or S into the 914?
I see them on ebay all the time and I know most of them require a 2-3K rebuild but I would have thought for 5K you could put a P6 into your teener, keep it all P and still have 165-190hp. ???? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (tracks914 @ Dec 21 2005, 08:35 PM)

What would it cost to drop a 2.4 T E or S into the 914? I see them on ebay all the time and I know most of them require a 2-3K rebuild but I would have thought for 5K you could put a P6 into your teener, keep it all P and still have 165-190hp. ???? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

MFI carbs or CIS? (all available.....)

[tracks914]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Dec 21 2005, 07:44 PM)

MFI carbs or CIS? (all available.....)

Right now I am looking at doing this but don't know which way to go. I'm thinking 2.4/carbs 140hp would be a big step up from my 1.7, sound better, pull better and still be a Porsche.

[anthony]

To do a six conversion with all high quality off the shelf parts you need to spend about $4000 plus the cost of the engine. It's not worth starting with a 2.4 that needs work.

[fat73]

I'm in the process of doing the WRX treatment to my '73 which already has a huge hole punched in the front trunk for an air conditioner. It also has what is called a 934 kit (slant) with huge flares. It already ain't stock, so what....See http://community.webshots.com/album/465320309IYcZZX ('tis the white one with the 935 paint job)

I've kicked this around for a long time since '96 and after pulling engines out of 2 cars 7 times over that period to fix galley plug leaks, and main seals, etc., you know the drill. I decided to go with the suby. I figure I'll have about $7500 in the whole thing(engine, ECU and wiring) including about everything I could buy from Renegade. I'm not knocking one of the professional builders on this board ('cause I know they do great work otherwise they wouldn't be in business and be able to get what they get for an engine)...but they wanted ~$12k for a 200+hp engine Type IV?. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

HOWEVER..THE DECISION WASN'T ABOUT $$$.....THE REAL DECISION WAS MADE AFTER THE RIDE AT RENEGADE IN VEGAS IN DANA's Subied 914. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) OH LORDY....can you say $90k 911s for lunch, and just about anything else you wanna challenge? My son owned a 2002 WRX until he fell asleep at the wheel and landed it upside down in a lake,. So I'm a little familiar with the performance of the stock 2.0 WRX. I can tell you the 914/WRX package is scary fast and it's.........a stock 2.0 WRX with a 901 tranny. Better yet, and even sicker, if you didn't know any better it sounded just like a stock 914 with maybe a bursch header/muffler (without the valve rattle) when he drove up to the hotel to pick me up. Engine is 40lbs lighter than a stock 914, and that car is ~1000+lbs lighter than a stock WRX. Hmmmmmm...do the math. HP and torque both in the right ranges to keep the car from turning into a pretzel. I've been underneath Dana's car and all through Renegade's shop and seen in person alot of their work. After the ride, and the tour, I got out the check book.

Can't wait to get this beast together. It's gonna be worth every dime. I can't say I would be as excited about a $12k Type IV.

fat73

[914werke]

QUOTE

I figure I'll have about $7500 in the whole thing(engine, ECU and wiring) including about everything I could buy from Renegade

So back to the poll criteria.....?

QUOTE

Engine is 40lbs lighter than a stock 914

Hmmm This is an intriguing stat.
What engine code is that? Also is that DRY? Once you add the Rad plumbing and WATER is that savings used up?
Not diminishing th pros (MORE POWER) just again trying to compare apples to grapefruits (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[jhadler]

QUOTE (fat73 @ Dec 21 2005, 08:58 PM)

....can you say $90k 911s for lunch, and just about anything else you wanna challenge?

must...resist....rant....

Okay! You say "challenge"? In what format? Wednesday night drags at the 1/4 mile? Burnout from the stoplight? In a competition format in anthing more organized than a street race, the 911 won't be at your side anyway. More likely, the AWD DSM putting 450 hp to all four wheels will be there, and likely eat your lunch. And no doubt, they spent around ten times more money to get there and will quite litterally walk away... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

And don't even get me started about street racing... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mad.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ar15.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chair.gif)

Sorry 'there... Long day...

-Josh2

[jhadler]

I think a differentiation needs to be made in this discussion.

A car for tooling around and running up and down canyons with. Or a car to compete with... The two (in this case) can often be mutually exclusive...

-Josh2

[smooth_eddy]

QUOTE

I'm willing to bet a nicely done conversion would have no more trouble being sold than a Type IV

I hope someone brings a Porscheru to WCC 06, so everyone can see what they look like. I have never seen one. Someone said in a past thread that he has never seen a conversion done that did not look like a hack job. Eddy

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Dec 20 2005, 04:46 PM)

So the poll question is if you had $5000 to spend on an upgrade for your 914, would you rather have a Type IV or a Subaru conversion?

i'm a sucker for aircooled. the idea of having a radiator in a 914 just doesn't appeal to me ...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) Andy

[Porcharu]

QUOTE (jhadler @ Dec 21 2005, 09:32 PM)

I think a differentiation needs to be made in this discussion. A car for tooling around and running up and down canyons with. Or a car to compete with... The two (in this case) can often be mutually exclusive... -Josh2

I think Josh has a good point here. I want a car to "tool around" in maybe even drive 10K per year. For me a mostly stock 2.5 NA Suby with a suby trans (with the mid radiator setup) is going to be the way to go. I hope to get around to doing a little bit of track driving but I don't know when that will happen again, if ever. I also think that a 2000lb 914 with a mellow 175hp will be a kick to drive on the street - and get great milage and have modern car reliability and maintainence needs.