engine rebuild help, lots of questions on organization and other stuff Options

[stateofidleness]

hey guys..

so im in the middle of "rebuilding" my engine, and by that i mean replacing all the hoses, stripping the smog equipment, painting/powder coating to make it look nice, and other general maintenance.

what i have a hard time understanding is how you guys keep everything sorted when taking it all apart?? im an ABSOLUTE noob with this stuff and am basically learning as i go from online forums and friends (MUCH MUCH MUCH appreciated btw!)

taking it apart is no problem lol, but im scared that i wont be able to put it back together.. i barely know the names of most of the parts of the engine let alone where the parts "should" be. ive seen some very beautiful engines on here and know what mine could possibly look like if i take the time to do it right. that is what inspires me and keeps me motivated.

WITHOUT spending tons of $$ on taking it to a shop to be "machined" (dont even really know what that means... is it possible for me to have a solid reliable engine "rebuild" without taking it all COMPLETELY apart... basically tin off and stopping... i dont have the knowledge or funds to turn it into a huge powerful engine but i think i can do most myself and have a solid build.

what all would ya'll recommend i do (im a novice, keep that in mind) and side question is how do ya'll keep it all organized?
another side question: if i get all the tin off and decide to powder coat, will the coater straighten the tin for me to? how do ya'll straighten the edges?

thanks for the help in advance!

maybe i should post in the concourse section as well for some pics of stock 2.0L's?

[MrKona]

Regarding your first question, I think the best tool is a digital camera. Dissassemble your parts slowly and take lots of pictures along the way, from all different angles. You can never tell which picture is going to be the one that really helps you down the line.

In addition to that, take the time to label pieces: what they are, what side of the car they were one, hoses should be labeled where they went to.

Also, especially with hoses or wiring, take the time to draw a diagram of all routing before you start dissassembly. As I'm sure you can tell, it's really important to document, document, document, because by the time you are finally ready for reassembly, you won't remember a thing...

Pretend like sombody else is going to be putting the pieces back together.

[McMark]

Ziploc bags and cardboard boxes are handy. Like Bryan said, digital camera is a necessity, and take three times as many pictures as you think you should.

Most things are either universal, or unique. For example, there are a lot of tin screws, but they're all the same. Toss them in a just-in-case bucket and buy all new ones. The things that are unique usually won't fit anywhere else, so you can't really get confused, for example, then cooling tin between the pushrod tubes and the cylinders are different on the left and right, and they won't fit on the wrong side, even though they looks very, very similar.

[Dave_Darling]

Ziploc baggies and a nice permanent marker help. As does tape you can write on. Some things that need to be kept in order can be put into holes cut in a piece of cardboard. And a digital camera is a lifesaver if you don't have a really good memory...

To most of us, a "rebuild" of the engine means taking it all the way apart, replacing all of the standard "wear" items like bearings, cam, lifters, and so on. Measuring all of the parts that can wear and making sure they're still in good enough shape to use, and if not then replacing them. Cleaning everything inside and out of the engine. Basically making it completely as-new, or as close as we can.

The "machine shop" will have specialized tools for measuring this kind of stuff, and for dealing with things that are almost-but-not-quite useable. Usually large powered cutting and sanding machines of various types, but also hydraulic presses and ovens and cleaning implements and all of that kind of thing.

Tom Wilson's "How To Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine" shows what is involved in a rebuild, including an overview of what the machine shop can or will do to your parts. Highly recommended if you're looking into this sort of thing.

Jake's video shows what happens in a rebuild if you hit no real snags and have a very good set of elves cleaning and measuring and machining everything for you off-camera. (Good thing, too, or it'd be 20 hours long instead of 2+!)

--DD

[stateofidleness]

what does somethin like that cost at a shop.. wouldnt even know the jargon or what to ask for lol... "so... can ya'll.. uh... make this shiny and work like new again?" lol

thanks for the tips, ill start implementing them asap!

i need to pick up that book as well!

[Twystd1]

Jakes video and an understanding of a Type IV engine is essential BEFORE you get even close to a machine shop. READ your engine manual daily till you can see every part in your head before you go to sleep. If possible.

I have built HUNDREDS of engines in my head. So when it comes time to actually build that combo. It's like I have done it many times before.
(Takes the fear away of fucking it up)

Me thinks you have several good opportunity's here to learn a ton of new engine knowledge and have some fun as well.
And you get to understand the discipline of dealing with the aggravation that always ensues when you are the "NEW GUY" or an old guy when building an engine. They never go together perfectly upon first mock up.
It takes some tweaking to get it right. And thats the fun of it for me.

And it is worth the time and money to do your own engine build IMHO.

Your last question was:
"what does somethin like that cost at a shop.. wouldnt even know the jargon or what to ask for lol... "so... can ya'll.. uh... make this shiny and work like new again?""

Wow.... Thats a loaded question.

First things first. WHOMEVER MACHINES YOUR PRETTY SHINY PARTS BETTER KNOW THE TYPE IV ENGINE DAM WELL.
ELSE YOUR PROBABLY GUNNA BE HOSED.

Assuming you have a rock solid machinist. AND you are doing a relatively stock rebuild.
He will know what to do with your parts without much assistance from you.
Unless you specifically call out needed tolerances and he needs to adhere to them.

If you are building a high performance engine. YOU are probably going to dictate what machining tolerances he will need to perform with your combo.

Note: Most automotive machine shops don't have the tools needed for these engines. They won't have boring/honing plates to bore and finish your cylinders. They may well not have the right bars to bore and/or hone your lifter galleys or crank mains. (Type IVs are a weird size to them if they are used to doing chevy's)

A non type IV machinist has no clue that he needs to take out all the cylinder/head studs and deck the block if you really want to do it right.

He will have no clue to the carbon paper trick to see if you have collapsed saddles on your block (Thanks Jake)

Your machinist has to know how far he can clean up your head before he starts taking the strength out of it and it becomes useless as your piston to valve clearance evaporates and your deck height gets screwy.

I could go on for hours about this stuff.

Ask around this place and others for a machine shop recommendation that works on these engines all the time and has a great reputation.

NOTE: MOST type 1 (VW BUG) shops THINK they know these engines. And dam few really do. They just fuck em up real good.

Note 2: You could buy a kit and minimize the machining learning curve and have the joy and knowledge of assembling your engine.

Note 3: If you live in SoCal or Nor Cal. There are several machine shops that I know that have earned a good reputation for doing solid work.

NOTE 4: Assembly should be the least of your concerns at this juncture. That will simply happen in time. You will do your homework. Ask for help. Do everything several times during the mock up stages. And YOU may well build a very bitchin Type IV engine.
(The smiles after building your first engine is priceless)

Find a good machinist. Use the search function here and at www.shoptalk forums.com (Type 4rum) and search "Engine Rebuild".

You will have a years worth of reading if you study 8 hours a day.
This will get you familiar with the terminology and understanding of these very KOOL aircooled engines.

Do it once. Do it right.

Cheers and best of luck on this. Cause I love this stuff.

Clayton

[stateofidleness]

Jakes video

NOTE 4: Assembly should be the least of your concerns at this juncture. That will simply happen in time. You will do your homework. Ask for help. Do everything several times during the mock up stages. And YOU may well build a very bitchin Type IV engine.
(The smiles after building your first engine is priceless)

Do it once. Do it right.

Clayton

which video do you suggest? he has like 230 videos lol

you know, i actually smiled after reading NOTE 4! got me excited because i really think i can learn to to this stuff

and i totally agree with that last statement!

question though clayton... is it dumb to not completely tear down the engine completely and just clean it up and do routine type stuff right now and maybe save all the machining and heavy duty stuff for later on with more money and experience?

[Dave_Darling]

We generally try to avoid rebuliding engines unless they need it. So unless your enine is in very bad shape (low compression, making Ugly Expensive Noises, etc.), just cleaning up what you can get to now is not a bad plan. It is probably even a better plan to pull off the engine tin and clean out underneath that--you may find all sorts of things in there. (Spark plugs, sockets, spare change, mouse nests, pine needles, lots of dirt and oil sludge...)

The engine cools better if air can actually touch the fins on the outside of it.

But taking the engine tin off without dropping the motor is a pain. So maybe you just want to clean up what you can reach, and drive the sucker...

--DD

[Jake Raby]

is it possible for me to have a solid reliable engine "rebuild" without taking it all COMPLETELY apart

It was 20 years ago- not today.

Do it all the way or not at all. Anything less is a compromise and waste of money..

I bail guys out of trouble that attempt this almost daily.

[David_S]

is it dumb to not completely tear down the engine completely and just clean it up and do routine type stuff right now and maybe save all the machining and heavy duty stuff for later on with more money and experience?

That is what I am planning to do with my project. Car had a 1.7 in it that wouldn't run. After I had the car apart, I got bored and hooked the wiring back up to the engine with it sitting on the garage floor. I found out that the PO had a couple of fuel lines hooked up backwards. Now, it runs pretty good sitting on the floor. My 76 parts car has a 2.0 in it that burns a quart of oil about every 200 miles. I want to put the 2.0 in my 73, but it is going to have to wait till I drive the 73 for a while. I am going to drive it with the 1.7 while I save up to build the 2.0. All I am going to do to the 1.7 for now is clean it up, make it look good, and fix a few oil leaks. By the way, did you ever get my floor pan pics ?

[Cevan]

I did what you want to do. I bought the car this past summer, drove it 1500 miles and then put it up on jack stands for the winter. The car ran great so this is what I did:

removed the motor/trans
send the injectors out to get cleaned/new screens
replaced the injector seals
replaced all the fuel lines, front to back
replaced all the non-FI clamps with FI clamps
removed and painted the engine tin
cleaned the fins on the jugs
replaced the push rod tube seals
adjusted the valves (a good way to do them the 1st time)
replaced the fan belt
replaced the bellows cable and made it funtional
generally cleaned up the motor
replaced any cracked or missing grommets
cleaned the engine bay, looked for and treated any rust that was found
installed a cylinder head temp sender

Even though I didn't do anything major to it, it should run better and a little cooler, which I assume is a good thing for these motors. You'd be surprised how much crap accumulates under the tin and around the fins.

[stateofidleness]

David i got your pics!! sorry i forgot to reply... bah.. thanks again... i will start cuttin in that car on sunday!

and Chris, that is basically what i am planning exactly!

ive gotten all the tin off and have started to generally clean it up and on the side ive gotten parts prepped for powdercoating.

im gettin nervous about the replacing the fuel lines bit because i still dont know what all is smog and will be removed when i put it all back together...

OT: is there a list or something of how many feet are needed and of how much of each ID is needed?

[Cevan]

Check out Pelican Parts. This is for the 2.0. By the way, I've found the FI clamps readily available at NAPA.

Search around here for threads on removing smog equipment. It's all here.

[Twystd1]

Assuming your engine has good leak down numbers and the oil pressure is where it should be. And there are no "WRONG" noises coming from the engine.

A major tune up like what Cevan did is the hot ticket. Especially if someone is financially challenged.

I really like what Cevan did on his engine. That sucker looks darn purdy to me...!!!!!

IF you haven't dropped your engine/trans combo to facilitate your major tune up.

YOU SHOULD. And it's easy to do. REALLY.

The first time might take 2-3 of hours to do this with a helper that hasn't done it before.

The second time you will have it out in 45 minutes or so.

Aaron and I can drop an engine/Trans combo and reinstall it in about an hour while were talking shit on each other at a machine gun staccato pace while eating burgers.

Bradhole does it even faster.

By the time you have pulled and installed a Type IV engine for the third time.
You will responding to all the "How do I drop the motor" threads like you are an old pro.
(You will act old and wise even though the 12 year old neighbor kid did all the work) (Gotta love the kids)

Have fun with your major tune up. And take the time to appreciate the knowledge and work you put into your car. It's priceless.

Clayton

[stateofidleness]

its already out and have already begun the dismantling
got everything off including the tin and am looking for a good degreaser to clean the case with

if i pay a powdercoater to paint my tins, will they shape them too?

also (very clean engine btw) in that pic, the section that the ignition coil mounts to (silver in the pic), is that plastic or metal? hard to tell, and would regular non high heat paint be fine for that?

[rebelmdot]

Ziploc baggies and a nice permanent marker help. As does tape you can write on. Some things that need to be kept in order can be put into holes cut in a piece of cardboard. And a digital camera is a lifesaver if you don't have a really good memory...

To most of us, a "rebuild" of the engine means taking it all the way apart, replacing all of the standard "wear" items like bearings, cam, lifters, and so on. Measuring all of the parts that can wear and making sure they're still in good enough shape to use, and if not then replacing them. Cleaning everything inside and out of the engine. Basically making it completely as-new, or as close as we can.

The "machine shop" will have specialized tools for measuring this kind of stuff, and for dealing with things that are almost-but-not-quite useable. Usually large powered cutting and sanding machines of various types, but also hydraulic presses and ovens and cleaning implements and all of that kind of thing.

Tom Wilson's "How To Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine" shows what is involved in a rebuild, including an overview of what the machine shop can or will do to your parts. Highly recommended if you're looking into this sort of thing.

Jake's video shows what happens in a rebuild if you hit no real snags and have a very good set of elves cleaning and measuring and machining everything for you off-camera. (Good thing, too, or it'd be 20 hours long instead of 2+!)

--DD

As a person with very limited mechanical experience, but the resignation that I will do the work myself, I could not agree more with DD. Jake's Video, Tom Wilson's book, and I would also buy a haynes manual. I found Amazon.com to have the best prices on these books and Jake's website is www.aircooledtechnology.com. Mine were delivered last week and I already have my engine completely torn down.

[rebelmdot]

Jakes video

NOTE 4: Assembly should be the least of your concerns at this juncture. That will simply happen in time. You will do your homework. Ask for help. Do everything several times during the mock up stages. And YOU may well build a very bitchin Type IV engine.
(The smiles after building your first engine is priceless)

Do it once. Do it right.

Clayton

which video do you suggest? he has like 230 videos lol

you know, i actually smiled after reading NOTE 4! got me excited because i really think i can learn to to this stuff

and i totally agree with that last statement!

question though clayton... is it dumb to not completely tear down the engine completely and just clean it up and do routine type stuff right now and maybe save all the machining and heavy duty stuff for later on with more money and experience?

Vol. 8