History - 917 "genes" in the 914 2.0L, The Porsche Racing Dept Engineering input Options

[Tom_T]

UPDATED 12/21/09 & (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) to all!

While the 917 is not strictly 914, it is historical info from the period & definitely original info. from the factory & race drivers of the day. And the pay-off for the link after this "shameless hook", is the info in the thread of how an Engineer from the Porsche Racing Department was able to make the lowly VW 1.7L 4 banger into a respectable "Porsche-bred" 90-100 hp 2L engine - when VW thought it was impossible to go any bigger & had been max'ed out at 1.8L (+/- 200% - recall it started in the 1930's VW as only about 900 cc).

See the videos at the link below, & also peruse the additional clips at the sidebar after viewing this one linked below, including those linking to racing 914/6's.....

<snipped>
If you like racing and the sounds of Porsches, you will love this video:


YouTube - Porsche 917
<end snip>

Enjoy! Courtesy of our local PCA-OCR membership chair! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Then read the lively discussion on the link between the 917 & 914-2.0 engines, of which even the "Master of 914 O&H" was not aware! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...Heck! - even I'm learning stuff I didn't know from others of you out there, which I always do! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[URY914]

I can't wait for Pat to see this thread...

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

Tom,

You're pushing Pat's buttons again. I can see him now...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Paul

[Tom_T]

Nope.....there's a connection between the 914-2.0 engine's design/engineering & the 917's - which these videos are about the factory history on the 917 & it's engineering.

I've been looking for the other link about it this afternoon, but my laptop has died & needs to go to Fujistu, & it has all my 914 info & bookmarks, etc. So I can't post the 2nd part of this now & have a deadline to meet so cannot devote anymore time to this subject search right now! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

BTW - the quote above was how I got the link in the email from Peter Lech at PCA-OCR, but that link & the 917 engines link on it's sidebar would've made the perfect compliment to the story, but my half-zymers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) has kicked in & I don't recall where I saw the piece on how the 2L was derived in part from the 917's engine.

Dang!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) - it was a great connection & I thought I could tie the two stories together. If anyone else has seen that write-up where they talked about engineering the 914-2.0 engine redesign of the prior 914/411 1.7L, in connection with the technology of the 917's 10 cyl. air-cooled racing engine, feel free to add in here! I think it had to do with the cams, timing, etc. on the 917...????

...anyone else with 2L 4-banger recall the story? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Pat, you can either leave it here until I have time again next week to look more (or get the laptop back), or move to whatever other forum you prefer.

...gotta get back to my deadline work now though..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[carr914]

I don't recall where I saw the piece on how the 2L was derived in part from the 917's engine.

Dang!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) - it was a great connection & I thought I could tie the two stories together. If anyone else has seen that write-up where they talked about engineering the 914-2.0 engine redesign of the prior 914/411 1.7L, in connection with the technology of the 917's 10 cyl. air-cooled racing engine, feel free to add in here! I think it had to do with the cams, timing, etc. on the 917...????

The Connection is Hans Metzger, The Engine Designer.

[eitnurg]

.......the 917's 10 cyl. air-cooled racing engine......

I think they started out by making sure the 917's engine had 12 cylinders........can u change the thread title?

[MDG]

.......the 917's 10 cyl. air-cooled racing engine......

I think they started out by making sure the 917's engine had 12 cylinders........can u change the thread title?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) yes, a 10 cylinder 917 would be running a bit rough . . .

[Tom_T]

.......the 917's 10 cyl. air-cooled racing engine......

I think they started out by making sure the 917's engine had 12 cylinders........can u change the thread title?

Hey, us old guys have brain-farts too!

Don't know how to change the thread title?? ....but can't look into it now anyhooo!!

10 or 12 cyl. would both run smooth Mike, so long as it's an even number, or even odd over 2 cyls. Look at the 5 cyl VW & Audi engines of the 90's.

[Pat Garvey]

Yes, you have pushed my buttons! Big time!

Let's get ONE thing very straight....there is NO connection between a 914 and a 917. NONE. But, I'm willing to talk 917's all night.

For those of you lucky people who have had the experience of hearing not just one, but multiples of the 917 run simultaneosly, then you know my 917 lust! There is no sweeter sound.

But it isn't even remotely related to 914's.

Still, I would give money to just sit in any 917 & fire it up.
Pat

No relationshio to 914's. And I think we should take this topic to the Sandbox.....though I'll let you tell me.

[Socalandy]

After I watched the video I was looking at some others in the search and then I saw the 914-6 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4L6_cQp09c...feature=related

[MDG]

No relationshio to 914's. And I think we should take this topic to the Sandbox.....though I'll let you tell me.

Aside from being a brilliant engineer and engine designer, Hans Mezger (no T in the last name) did the 917, 935, 936, 956, 962 and the TAG F1 engines to name some.

His department also did development work on the 2.0 4 cyl that debuted in our cars in 1973. That's the only connection I can come up with unless Tom knows something else. Otherwise the connection to that monster car is tenuous at best IMO.

Oh and Tom, what I meant was (I hate explaining jokes - even bad ones) the 917 was a 12 cylinder car ergo one running on 10 is probably having a bit of an issue.

ba-dum-ba

[Tom_T]

Pat - in addition to the same engineer for the engines of both the 914-2.0 & the 917, there was something about the way they set up the 2.0 bore/stroke timing & cam which was similar to or borrowed from the 917's engine design, which makes sense when the same person designs both.

Unfortunately my "new" laptop is off being fixed, & that was my evening/weekend 'puter to do 914 stuff, so I cannot even get to the proper bookmarks without extensive time searching that I can't do now. I thought it was in the Porsche history write-up at their PAG/PCNA website, but my cursory search there this evening turned up nothing. Sorry, but the laptop crapped out in the middle of doing this originally & I can't complete it now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

I can redo this later, but SoCal Andy did find the 914-6 link in the extra ones I mentioned to also look at, so maybe at least put that in a separate thread for the Sixers & fans of same here.

Mike - apparently my brain was firing on 3 cyls. with your joke! ...got it now!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[carr914]

I don't recall where I saw the piece on how the 2L was derived in part from the 917's engine.

Dang!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) - it was a great connection & I thought I could tie the two stories together. If anyone else has seen that write-up where they talked about engineering the 914-2.0 engine redesign of the prior 914/411 1.7L, in connection with the technology of the 917's 10 cyl. air-cooled racing engine, feel free to add in here! I think it had to do with the cams, timing, etc. on the 917...????

The Connection is Hans Mezger, The Engine Designer.

Here is the Qoute from Hans Mezger that I was searching for

[Tom_T]

I don't recall where I saw the piece on how the 2L was derived in part from the 917's engine.

Dang!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) - it was a great connection & I thought I could tie the two stories together. If anyone else has seen that write-up where they talked about engineering the 914-2.0 engine redesign of the prior 914/411 1.7L, in connection with the technology of the 917's 10 cyl. air-cooled racing engine, feel free to add in here! I think it had to do with the cams, timing, etc. on the 917...????

The Connection is Hans Mezger, The Engine Designer.

Here is the Qoute from Hans Mezger that I was searching for

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Yeah, that's the one! Thanx T.C.!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think there may have been more details on other things that he "borrowed" from stuff learned on the 917 et al engines in the one I recalled reading, along the line of stuff they did with pistons/rings, cams & timing (which I'll still try to find whenever I get my laptop back).

So you see Pat, Paul, etc. - while I used the 917 as a "hook" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) - there really was a connection between the Porsche Racing Dept. & the lowly 914 Type IV 2.0 engine - as well as with the notorious line of racing 914-6's & M-471 race conversion kits available to the dealers, of which many/most here are aware. So this is a little equal time for us 2L fans out here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

This is an apparently far more obscure bit of 914 HISTORY than even I gave all y'all 914 Guru's credit for, but is certainly a "wery interesting" (use the Arte Johnson "Laugh In" voice) & integral part of the "H" part of this O&H Forum!

Pat, Paul, et al - NO BUTTONS WERE BEING PUSHED - maybe a little ear & eye candy to get attention for the link between 917s & 914-2.0s, but a well meaning historical tidbit on my part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...if this type of history is not appropriate here, then I ask where?? Is the H of O&H only related to CW aspects of street 914s period?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

So how do I correct the title after-the-fact, so the connection is clearer in the title/sub-title?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

...and so Mike isn't worried about it running rough? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Although Mike, I seem to recall one race back in the day where a 917 took 2nd or 3rd running on only 10! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
...dang strong engine, that 10 er 12 er (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) !!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[McMark]

The 'Moderation Options' menu in the bottom left. Choose Edit Topic Title. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

[Tom_T]

The 'Moderation Options' menu in the bottom left. Choose Edit Topic Title. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

Sorry McMark, but I'm not seeing that Moderation Options menu anywhere, let alone the bottom left of whatever!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

...where am I supposed to be looking?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Thanx for the great 917 engine cutaway! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

[McMark]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I don't have that on-screen! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Do I need to select/toggle it on (if so - how/where?), or is it just for the mods & admins?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[carr914]

Go to your 1st Post, hit the edit button on the bottom, select Full Edit, then you can change the Title, add/subtract pictures, etc.

T.C.

[eitnurg]

One thing entirely different about the 917 engine (& presumably the flat-16 they also developed) is that it's not a boxer engine at all - it's a 180° vee.

Just like the Ferrari Berlinetta Boxer, despite the name. Daft, that.