Best Practices for Engman Kit Install, How to install without chassis warpage... Options

[ConeDodger]

I just picked up my car from McMark's shop today. Original Customs for the uninformed. I had him install the Engman Kit I got in the last group buy. I had heard the stories of door gaps shrinking and things not lining up and that is why I gave this job to Mark. My car is a 70K mile preservation and I am only the second owner. The door gaps were perfect going in and perfect coming out.

Nice work Mark! If you are thinking of doing this, I highly recommend Mark and if you are too far away, definitely ask how he did this. His method worked without any body warping...

Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ConeDodger]

Just took the car off the trailer and took a drive in the rain. Definitely stiffens the chassis. Slow speed over speed bumps are the tell... Mark took some pictures, maybe he will share.

[sixnotfour]

Mark took some pictures, maybe he will share

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[ConeDodger]

Mark took some pictures, maybe he will share

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Don't hold your breath on the pictures though Jeff. Mark is married now. Allison owns his ass until Tuesday and even then his leash only reaches to the shop (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) He works Tuesday through Saturday... We will see how soon he can sneak away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ahdoman]

Rob - Maybe it's just the way I'm reading it but I think you need to change the title of your post. It makes it sound like there is something wrong with Engman's kit which is not the issue.

When metal is heated (as in welding) it will stretch and then as it cools it shriks. If a concentrated amount of time is spent applying a lot of heat to one area it will create problems. That is not a result of a poorly manufactured kit, that is is problem of a poorly educated installer.

[Dr Evil]

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[ConeDodger]

That is why it says "a bad install". The problem isn't with the kit, in fact Mark sounded a little puzzled by how others were getting that bad result. The fact remains, if I installed or had my kit installed and my door gaps were suddenly bad, it would be a horror story. A reasonable person who reads what I wrote would understand that the problem is not with the kit. I didn't really write it for people who just scan the title.

[johnnie5]

Word association - the phrase 'horror stories' directly preceded by Engman kit does make it sound as if the issue is with the kit itself, contrary to the subject matter.

[EdwardBlume]

Mark took some pictures, maybe he will share

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Don't hold your breath on the pictures though Jeff. Mark is married now. Allison owns his ass until Tuesday and even then his leash only reaches to the shop (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) He works Tuesday through Saturday... We will see how soon he can sneak away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Isn't that similar to a Sam Kinnesan routine?

[plymouth37]

Anytime you do that amount of welding on a chassis you need to brace the s#!t out of it, glad yours turned out nice and straight! I used more tubing in the chassis braces for my cage than in the cage itself.

[Elliot Cannon]

I have installed a few Engman products and have been very happy with them. I installed the inner long kit a few months ago. I made braces for the doors after removing them, drilled out all the holes to 5/8" and used compressed air to cool down after each weld. I found that drilling the holes bigger made for a larger weld area and a stronger weld. It worked out great for me. Your results may vary but the quality of Engman products is very good.

[McMark]

Rob, I reworded you title slightly. Not that you were wrong, but I think mine is slightly clearer.

I installed the kit with no additional bracing or support, with the car sitting on its wheels. There was absolutely no warping and no change in the door gaps.

I 'dry fit' the kit to make sure everything looked and fit exactly how I wanted it. I then modified two drill bits to prepare each hole for the rosette weld. One drill bit passed through the hole to clear the paint from the long, the other cleared the E-Coat from the kit. I'll post pictures of those modified drill bits and pictures of the install on Tuesday. I also used self tapping sheet metal screws to secure and pull the kit into place.

I took my time doing the installation and prepped three or four holes at a time, welded them, waited a bit, then repeated. Took me about 15 hours to remove the interior, prep everything, weld, grind, paint, and reinstall the interior.

It's important for me to mention that the Engman Kit fits absolutely perfectly. I didn't have to tweak, modify, or otherwise manipulate his parts. They dropped right into place. And as long as you work SLOW and METHODICALLY you have no danger of warping the chassis. Rushing and welding too much, too fast are easy mistakes to make and WILL cause problems. Prepping all the welds ahead of time is a mistake that will encourage you to weld too fast. I also welded starting at one end and work consistently towards the other. I figure that jumping from one end to the other can 'trap' stress in the long. My thinking is that if you make a weld, and that heat distorts the metal, if you make another weld farther away while the original metal is in an 'altered state', your second weld will 'trap' and lock the metal into that 'altered state'. By keeping the welds together, I think you'll keep the 'trapping' to a minimum.

Pictures on Tuesday.

[Gint]

Rob, I reworded you title slightly. Not that you were wrong, but I think mine is slightly clearer.

Thank you. I was shocked when I first read it. A new guy that isn't familiar with the quality of Engman's products may read it the wrong way. Even still might for that matter IMO. Also, the secondary title entry is often overlooked, especially when reading the forum index.

The Engman inner long kit installed in my 914-6 is of excellent craftsmanship. Only a cheesy install would cause an installation to warp the tub.

Looking forward to seeing the modified drill bits Mark.

[ConeDodger]

Rob, I reworded you title slightly. Not that you were wrong, but I think mine is slightly clearer.

Thank you. I was shocked when I first read it. A new guy that isn't familiar with the quality of Engman's products may read it the wrong way. Even still might for that matter IMO. Also, the secondary title entry is often overlooked, especially when reading the forum index.

The Engman inner long kit installed in my 914-6 is of excellent craftsmanship. Only a cheesy install would cause an installation to warp the tub.

Looking forward to seeing the modified drill bits Mark.

The purpose of the thread is to show how a good install can avoid the horrors of finding your chassis has warped. I doubt John (fourblades) or others who have had chassis warpage appreciate having their install being called "cheesy". Most of John's work on that car is closer to art. My purpose in having starting this thread is to make sure others don't have the same problems. I want to make sure people know the dangers of an install that is not mindful of this possibility.

No one is questioning the quality of the Engman product. Certainly not me! I paid good money for it. I wouldn't have done that if I questioned the quality or the utility. Mark changed one word in the primary title and a couple in the secondary. I re-edited it so the secondary title was actually a proper sentence. Anyone who carefully read what I said and clarified in my third post would know that I was not in any way calling the Engman product quality into question. Perhaps if you were shocked you could have carefully reread it. That is what I do when I read something that shocks me. I often find that I got the meaning wrong.

[Gint]

It was a generalization of the worst extreme. I certainly was not referring to any specific person or install. But if their tubs warped while installing this kit then something probably wasn't done properly. They'll probably be the first to admit that. But not having any detail or knowledge of the issues they encountered during their installations I can't say for sure either way.

Regardless, it's pretty obvious that I'm not the only one that thought your original title might be misleading. It does read much better now. Thanks for the edit(s).

[ChrisFoley]

Anytime you do that amount of welding on a chassis you need to brace the s#!t out of it, glad yours turned out nice and straight! I used more tubing in the chassis braces for my cage than in the cage itself.

We don't use any bracing when installing the Engman kits.
Nor do we use any bracing when installing a roll cage.
We never have a problem with chassis warpage.
Our roll cage kits come with instructions that, when followed carefully, prevent the build-up of shrinkage stresses.
I had a customer call to ask how to adjust his door gap after completing the cage installation so I asked if he had followed the instructions. He said there were no instructions with the kit so I told him they were usually stapled to the invoice. While we were talking he looked in his files and found the invoice. Sure enough, the instructions were still attached. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

If you just go nuts welding without understanding the effects, there will be unintended consequences. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[SirAndy]

Regardless, it's pretty obvious that I'm not the only one that thought your original title might be misleading. It does read much better now. Thanks for the edit(s).

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[Spoke]

I was hoping this thread would give some tips of what to do or what not to do but it seems to be more concerned with the wording of the title.

So what are the do's and don'ts of this kit? I have a kit waiting for me to finish some long repair then install the kit.

I know to keep the metal cool. Do I do a couple of welds at one end, then let it cool then do some welds on the other end?

[Gint]

I did a little searching after reading this post. Check out fourblades saga. It may answer some of your questions regarding dos and don'ts.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=94311&

[ConeDodger]

I was hoping this thread would give some tips of what to do or what not to do but it seems to be more concerned with the wording of the title.

That is my sincere hope. Let's hope they are done with that now...