Need some help choosing Dual carbs, Switching over to carbs. Options

[anthony]

Chill out Scott. Nobody is suggested he repair his FI system 'just because' it's right. He's in a totally different place than you were. He's got all the FI pieces but he doesn' t even know why the car is not starting/running. He doesn't know if his tank, filter or lines are plugged. He has no idea whether his fuel pump is working or not. We're just trying to save the kid a grand.

I just don't understand the "I'm switching to carbs because I don't undestand FI" attittude. If someone spends a couple hours reading and a couple hours with a multimeter they'll understand djet pretty well in just a Saturday afternoon. The tests for the individual components are usually pretty easy to do.

[cgnj]

Before everyone jumps all over my car, realise that I did not have the option of fixing my FI. It appears from reciepts that my car was one that had an FI engine fire - there is litterally not a shred of FI on my car anywhere - including randome things like the charcoal canister/lines. There was no way I was or ever will invest in all of the *used* parts to re-assemble that system. You want me to do an engine rebuild on a car that runs great just so some think its right?

I rowed the same boat. I priced backdating to FI. Carbs are cheaper.

This car was a runner that needed to be bump started when he first posted.
Look at all the things that have been touched since it was bought.
Take a poll. FI failure or inadverant self induced problem, or better yet car sat for X years, bump started, ran till the fuel filter couldn't do its job anymore.

Carlos

Not an FI Missionary

[Joe Bob]

Thanks Tod for posting that detailed proceedure. I bought a fuel pump relocation kit last summer and did not do it because removing the fuel tank seemed like a more difficult task. I guess I can do that one in a weekend. Thanks again, Brian.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Removing the tank is not a difficult job and should be considered a maintenance item. There are critical fuel lines underneath that get ignored.

The tank has to be removed to install a sway bar as well...

[Dave_Darling]

First, let me state that I am an "FI guy". I think you should fix the FI.

But, if you are going to carbs...

If you trust your mechanic, you should get your parts through him. Bringing in your own parts is a good way to piss a mechanic off, because part of how he pays his rent every month is by making a little money on the parts he installs. In general, simple hourly rate isn't enough to pay the bills. (I personally would think twice about that mechanic, but if you trust him then that's good enough.)

Weber 48s are way too big for a 2.0 street engine. The 44s are a pretty good choice, maybe a little on the large side. The 40s are also a good choice, but are probably a little on the small size for a 2.0 engine. The little Webers listed (34s?) are very small for a 1.7 motor, let alone a 2.0 one.

Solexes are, from my reading, so-so. The newer ones (now made by Kadron?) seem to have a reputation as being cheap, but cheap. (Notice "good" isn't in that sentance.)

The Dell'Orto carbs seem to be the carbs of choice. The problem is that they're not being made any more, and some of the parts are hard to come by. CB Performance lists most of the parts, but it sometimes takes a couple of months to get them in. Dell 40s would be a good choice. They evidently have much better progression between idle and full throttle than the other carbs, and don't suffer so much from the "light switch" effect where power is all-or-nothing.

There are lots of choices, here...

Next, we come to the "extra stuff" you will need.

Rich is dead-on about the fuel pump. The stock pump will not work with carbs. One of the people I know who has tried it blames that for the engine fire that damaged the car pretty thoroughly not long after the swap. A real fuel pressure regulator (not the cheap chrome thingie) is probably a good investment, as is a fuel pressure gauge for carbs.

You can use your current distributor, if it's in good shape. IMHO, the "009" distributor is crap and should be avoided. Some carbs will have the correct fittings to hook up the vacuum advance and/or retard on the stock distributor, which IMHO is a Good Thing. The big-$$ Mallory distributors have many fans as well, who insist that this distributor is far better than any other for our engines.

You will need manifolds. Bug manifolds will not fit our motors at all. Late Bus manifolds (the "Type IV engine" ones) can be drilled for the three-stud pattern of the 914 2.0 heads.

You will need a linkage. A Bug linkage will need a fair amount of creative tinkering to work. The rod will need to be shortened, and the bellcranks probably monkeyed with.

You will need extra parts to make the carbs work correctly with your engine. Most of them come with venturis that are suboptimal (in some cases very bad) for our engines. Most of them need re-jetting. And so on. So a collection of venturis, main jets, idle jets, air correction jets, emulsion tubes, and on and on are things that you will need. Plus some advice on where to start, plus tuning time.

Speaking of tuning, a real synchrometer is the only way to go. The "Uni-syn" floating-ball thingie is not generally considered the best way to synch the carbs.

Once you add up all the stuff above, you might see fixing the FI in a new light. ... Or maybe not.

Most of the "usual suspects" in terms of suppliers have been mentioned. I think Pelican may also sell Webers and associated parts, but I'm not sure frankly. (As I said, I'm an FI guy.) John C at aircooled.net will generally have good (not necessarily great, but good!) prices and excellent service. He seems to be one of the Good Guys. I think Pierce Manifolds still does sell Webers for the 914 as well.

That's all I can come up with off the top of my head.

Now, you need to figure out if it's worth it for you to take the car to someone and have them "just fix it", or if you want to do the work yourself. If someone else is doing the work, you should probably let them pick the parts if they have strong opinions... After all, you are trusting them to do the work, right? And let them make their profit off of the parts prices as well. If you DIY, then you can shop for deals to your heart's content. But it takes longer, of course, and it's more work.

Again, my opinion is that the stock FI should be fixed. But if you want to go to carbs, the above is the best advice I have.

--DD

[brians914]

Sounds like I better get it done before I am in Mr. Cactus's shoes.

[Mueller]

I just don't understand the "I'm switching to carbs because I don't undestand FI" attittude.

at first glance into the engine compartment the FI and wiring can be intimidating, add in the cost of some of the FI parts and I can see why people go that route...hell, I started down this path myself once...the only reason I sold my carbs and taught myself more about FI was due to wanting to turbo or supercharge my car and I even tho carbs can work with either system, I've come to the conclusion that FI is better for my application...

as to those 1.8 dual carbs...my only concerns would be getting rebuild parts for them......

i can say carbs look 100% better on the engine than FI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Scott S]

Chill out Scott. Nobody is suggested he repair his FI system 'just because' it's right. He's in a totally different place than you were. He's got all the FI pieces but he doesn' t even know why the car is not starting/running. He doesn't know if his tank, filter or lines are plugged. He has no idea whether his fuel pump is working or not. We're just trying to save the kid a grand.

I just don't understand the "I'm switching to carbs because I don't undestand FI" attittude. If someone spends a couple hours reading and a couple hours with a multimeter they'll understand djet pretty well in just a Saturday afternoon. The tests for the individual components are usually pretty easy to do.

My frustration comes from how the carb vs FI topic seems to always outweigh any other discussion point. there are folks on this list who own some extremely poor examples of our beloved cars - things I would classify as rusty pieces of junk that have no business being on the road. Yet we welcome them with open arms, tell them what a great car they have. Then there is other ugly head - if a car is on ebay and not owned by one of our members it is a piece of junk. If it is carbed, it has been butchered by a crappy mechanic and worth far less than an FI car.
Sorry for the rant - it's just getting old.

fire away....

[Joe Bob]

That's what is nice about this forum....unlike a email subscription list. If the subject is one that makes you wanna blow chunks, you don't HAVE to read it or participate.....

[majkos]

Scott, I'm glad you've vented,just not worth holding it in. You've something to say,and we listen(read) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif) Truthfully,if it's any consolation,you've one of the Baddest,neatest carbed set-up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)
I too,live in Colorado, and was very impress to hear how well your car can start up and go w/o having to warm up! I've F.I. and have to wait for 'her to warm up.AND I HAVE A HEATED GARAGE!
Let's get together and a few beers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
and laugh at all stories on this unbeivable site!

[SirAndy]

fire away....

i hate carbs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

but i think you're right. a good carb setup does not devalue a car, IMHO.
i'm not a CW.
if it works, it works.

i used to work with carbs and dual setups for years on my VW-Bugs.
(had probably 10 of them over the years).
everything from stock single carb to dual & quad with homemade linkage
and manifolds and kompressors all kinds of trick schtuff.

i knew how to work 'em and then i bought this VW-Bus that had a 2.0L
Type4 FI engine in it. 100 HP made the bus going like crazy.
ripped the engine out and threw it into my bug.
that WAS an eye-opener. i didn't know sh$t about FI at the time.
hooked it all up and it ran. no cold start problems anymore.
fired right up everytime. perfect idle. smooth running.

i haven't looked back ever since.
i love FI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)
Andy

[GWN7]

What most people have tryed to point out to Catcus is that he has a 1/2 working FI system now and it would be cheaper to get it fixed right than going to the carbs.

Only time I have seen people poop on carbs is when it's a single bug style or they are duels on a car ad that states it's all orginal.

BTW I have Dells on the 70 and can concur that they take tinkering. The flow meters are available on Ebay for $50 all the time and some parts have to come from Italy for them.

The 73 is FI and the 74 has a single carb setup waiting to go in it, but as it's a 750 Holly I don't think anyone but a CW will complain. The 71 will be FI, but the only reason for that is I have all the parts and can spend the $1,000 for converting on other things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

[mike_the_man]

So Cactus, you out there? What do you think of all of this? Let us know how the carb swap goes, if you decide to go that route. Although I think there have been many reasons stated to stay with the current fuel injection. What do you think?

[krk]

It's funny. Dunno if I'm a Carb guy or a FI guy.

When I got the 73, I was a carb guy -- no instinct for FI -- and it had problems. It was pretty frustrating, particularly without internet resources for debugging the thing. A simple vacuum leak could produce very odd results. I'd fix one and I'd have a different very odd problem as I moved from leak to leak. I eventually realised that the vacuum hoses were probably original and all leaked -- I replace them all in one operation. It was a totally different car, and it basically ran beautifully until I sold it. So perhaps it was an acquired taste, but I loved the FI on that 2.0. Quiet, and no funny gas smells.

Now I've got my /6 running (second week daily driver duties -- still no roof on! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)), and have started getting used to carbs again. There are things I think are fun about them -- they make "go fast" sounds even when you're not going all that fast -- and they are an analog system, so the symptom is often closely related to the problem. (even being out of practice meant that I could diagnose and quickly fix a dirty idle jet) But they do give off more noise, and more gas smells, then the FI ever did on the /4.

So given my druthers, on a stock /4, I druther have FI. If I were hopping up a /4, you get to choose between a megasquirt-type system or carbs. 'Till Saturday, my druthers on the /6 were carbs -- but the Turbo came home -- so my druther for a /6 is a turbo! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

As for our cactus (aside: we are cactus/succulent gardeners here at our house -- "cactus boy" is a better name than Mr. Succulent (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) kidding of course) problem, I think lots of folks have given sound comments on this thread. The goal is a running car -- pick the one you are most confident at winning with and tally ho. (remember to save the old parts). Best of luck with either choice -- there will be folks to have answers here either way.

kim.

[weird_looking_cactus]

Ok ok... I have to admit that I had a problem. Probley the main reason I wanted the carbs was so I could tell everyone I have porsche with dual weber carbs and when I pop the engine lid I wanted something to show off. But I just got back talking with my mechanic and he was working on my porsche he seemed very happy about the progress so it made me fill alittle happyer about fuel injection. He had lots of little gizzmoes hooked up to my car like remote starter some little fuel injecter pluse lights and he had put brand new connections on all the fuel injection wires. But he said he still can't get any pluse. So next he's going to clean the distributor and check the fuel injection trigger points and clean it all up. When I first went there I forgot to ask how much they charge an hour. I asked him today and they say for students its about $40 a hour. If I wanted to get my car fixed like today they it he said it would go up about to $70 but he's not constly working on it just when he has spare time. Here is a list of things I have done to the car. Before bringing to the shop

1-Took the fuel tank out changed all the gas lines there cause they were leaking bad
2-Changed all the fuel injecter lines cause a couple were linking
3-Put a new ignition switch in hoping with would fix my starter problem I now know its the wire,
4- I stuck a new fuel injecter in cause when I had the system running and found one was not shooting
5- I put new spark plugs and wires in.
6- I put new points and condensered and new distrubitor cap.
7- Put a new ignition coil
8- Changed the oil twice withen the same week.
9- Took all the old raggy carpet out found there was a hole under the seat cause of rust so now I need to weld a plate over that.

Here is what plan to do with the next month
1-Get the car running on fuel injection or carbs
2- fix the hole
3- get 2 new turn signal lenses
4- get new porsche back trunk lenses
5- buy a carpet kit
6- replace old beaten up seats with nice ones
7- buy dash cap or get a new dash
8- sand car down prime and paint black
9- drive car to school show my friends I have a porsche

So if I stay with fuel injection I will probley have lots of money left over to do all the things I want to do but I still think it would be nice to have something to show off in the engine.

[Joe Bob]

OK....clarify please....in one area you say that the wrench can't get a pulse, then one of the injectors was replaced....

I assume that meant no pulse to the injectors? If so, why was one replaced?

Also has the INJECTION trigger points been looked at? They are under the points for spark plugs in the dizzy....

[weird_looking_cactus]

I replaced one of the injecters before the fuel injecter system went out on me cause I switch it with another and it still did not work but the other still work in the old ones spot. And yes the mechanic is going to look at the trigger points. Im not sure what your talking when you say ""wrench can't get a pulse"" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mueba.gif)

[Joe Bob]

First paragraph.....you wrote,,,But he said he still can't get any pluse. ......

[SirAndy]

wrench = your mechanic

[mike_the_man]

Sounds like somebody has carb envy! Is that a big weber in your engine bay, or are you just happy to see me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Joe Bob]

wrench = your mechanic

"DOH"..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)