OT: the Toyota Deal Options

[Scott S]

Anyone own one that had experienced the gas pedal issue?

Are these cars a manual/mechanical system, or drive by wire type deal? Cant find much info out there, other then "they dont know what is causing the issue".

That seems a bit off to me.

Just curious - so I thought I would ask the car guys....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Scott S

[underthetire]

Think its fly by wire stuff only. They are cutting the gas pedal to make room for the floor mats (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) to solve a engineering problem.

[andys]

The floor mat problem is separate (according to Toyota) from the recent pedal hang or returns too slowly issue. Actually the best read about it is in today's WSJ which described how this problem surfaced in Europe some time ago, and some sort of fix was employed on Euro models only. Apparently the throttle pedal assembly is made here in the US.

All this of course is very unsettling to my wife, as has a '10 Camry. Called the dealer last night, and the service guy basically said "we know nothing yet." That's reassuring.

Andys

[ws91420]

Toyota has just put a hold on sales of the affected models.

[Cap'n Krusty]

They're DBW, and they DO NOT have the feature incorporated in European cars that cuts the throttle if the brakes are engaged, even slightly. Pretty arrogant of Toyota to assume they didn't need that safety system. A separate issue is the keyless operation.

Here's a fairly recent story from CBS Channel 8 in San Diego
'Runaway cars' may be a widespread problem for Toyota, Lexus owners
Posted: Oct 19, 2009 6:54 AM PDT Updated: Oct 19, 2009 6:54 AM PDT
The deaths of an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family in a runaway Lexus, its brakes on fire, point to a troubling possibility that millions of Toyota and Lexus autos on American roads have serious throttle control problems.

The Los Angeles Times analyzed public records on runaway Lexus and Toyota autos, and reports that the malfunction that killed the San Diego-area family may have been far more serious than a floor mat jammed on a gas pedal.

The newspaper quotes experts who say that the keyless ignition, automatic transmission controls, and computerized gas throttle controls combine to make millions of Toyota and Lexus cars susceptible to a stuck gas pedal that overwhelms brakes, making it impossible for even a trained Highway Patrol officer to save his family's lives as their car sped at 120 mph.

"This is Toyota's Firestone," concluded Sean Kane, a Massachussetts auto safety consultant to The Times, referring to defective radial tires that caused a series of fatal crashes.

Lexus is the high-end brand name for cars built by Toyota. And Toyota's chief executive Akio Toyoda has apologized publicly for the wreck, indicating how serious the company views the matter.

"Customers bought our cars because they thought they were the safest," Toyoda said.

"But now we have given them cause for grave concern. I can't begin to express my remorse."

Mark Saylor was driving his wife, daughter and brother in law to the girl's soccer practice Aug. 28 when the in-law called 911 to report the car was hurtling up a La Mesa freeway, its throttle stuck. "We're in trouble ... there's no brakes," said Chris Lastrella.

The car went down a ramp and into an intersection, and the 911 system recorded screams as the Lexus hit another car and went down an embankment.

Toyota has blamed the stuck gas pedal on floor mats, and ordered the recall of 3.8 million cars dating back to 2004. But experts interviewed by The Times say there may have been other factors as well:

-- The Lexus sedan was equipped with an automatic transmission control that mimics old-fashioned manual shifters, making it difficult for a driver to shift to neutral while the car is moving.

-- The power assist brakes rely on a vacuum that diminishes as the engine revs faster, reducing the braking assistance to near zero if the engine is roaring.

-- The manual brakes are unable to stop a 272-horsepower engine getting an open throttle and moving 120 mph.

-- The keyless ignition system requires a driver to hold a dashboard button down for three seconds to turn the engine off, a fact that is disclosed in the vehicle manual but may not be obvious to a motorist.

And perhaps most-damning, the car's computers do not reduce gas flow to the engine when the brakes are applied.

The Times reports that the combination of design features may have been so impossible for a driver that even a 19-year CHP veteran could not regain control of the Lexus, which had been lent to the family while Saylor's wife's Lexus was in for service at a dealership.

The brakes on the doomed Lexus near San Diego were reportedly on fire as he car hurtled up the freeway.

The San Diego County sheriff's department and CHP are still investigating the August wreck that killed Saylor, his wife Cleofe Lastrella, 13-year-old daughter Mahala, and the brother in law, Chris Lastrella.

"I don't think you can stop a car going 120 mph and an engine at full throttle without power assist," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety, in an interview with The Times. A driver would have to exert 225 pounds of pressure on the foot pedal to generate enough force to engage the brakes.

The Times quoted experts who said the obvious remedy for shutting off the engine -- turning the car off -- was not apparent to a driver not well-versed in the three-second button push maneuver mentioned in the owners manual.


And shifting the gears to neutral may have been difficult, had the driver even thought if it, due to the configuration of the shifter, the newspaper reported.

The Cap'n

[Cap'n Krusty]

This just in! LA Times, this afternoon ............

http://tinyurl.com/yb95rcw

I suggest you (and your wife) read it ......................

The Cap'n

[EdwardBlume]

Its a mess. Dealers are pulling new and used inventory. Customers are calling in in droves.... rental fleets are pulling their units.... this one will take time to get over, but the good news is that Prius owners are fine.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[ConeDodger]

Oh great! The things will run forever, even if you ignore the maintenance, and now apparently they will do it at full throttle! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[zymurgist]

No mechanical connection between the pedal and the throttle plate.
No mechanical connection between the shifter and the transmission.

Didn't we talk about DBW issues in a recent thread?

[Katmanken]

Yup,

They are packing more and more electronic crap into cars.

The formerly reliable Volvo, Saabs, and others are filled with huge amounts of electronic crap that fails item by item and cost a fortune to fix.

Price an electronic controlled door lock or electric window and compare the price to a simple mechanical one.

It became all the rage to phase out mechanical throttle cables and replace them with sleek electronic ones. There was even a hugely famous patent law battle over that.

I can't wait until somebody figures out how to broadcast malicious code to the electronic management systems in cars and cause the throttle controls to go crazy.

I like my Camry. It has a 5 speed manual, a throttle cable, and a clutch. Evil asked me why anyone would buy one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

And here's why.

[PeeGreen 914]

You mean to tell me that a trained officer didn't think to turn the car off or put the car in neutral? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I know you have split seconds to do these things but ahhhh.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Damn Prius, why couldn't they have been the only one to actually have the problem? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) I hate those cars.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Its a mess. Dealers are pulling new and used inventory. Customers are calling in in droves.... rental fleets are pulling their units.... this one will take time to get over, but the good news is that Prius owners are fine.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

From that specific problem, anyway. They have their own software issues, mostly with sudden stalling under various conditions. The Cap'n

[andys]

Mechanical systems can stick too. I floored my '73 L82 Vette many years ago on the Santa Ana fwy late on a Sunday night. Let up at about 95MPH, but the pedal stayed on the floor. Had my hand ready on the ignition switch while kicking at the pedal and the car accellerating wildly. It finally popped back up, but boy it got my attention! Car had 28K miles on it at the time; it was completely stock.

Andys

[Al Meredith]

My $.02... I'll bet the variable resister or what ever signals the computer comes from China.

[Pat Garvey]

I would bet that 60 minutes will barely touch this story.

For some reason, they had a burr up thier ass for Audi in the early 90's, but I would bet they give Toyota a pass. Came close to putting Audi out of business.

Well see. But "journalists" set their own priorities, Asshats!

[balljoint]

I have an '05 Tacoma. I got a letter from the dealer with details about floor mats and that they were going to call me to schedule a trim for my gas pedal. My truck is drive by wire, but the ignition is keyed, not push start and I can easily down shift or put it in neutral while driving. Car companies have been killing their customers since the dawn of the automobile. Let's hope this latest problem translates into better and safer cars from all manufacturers.

[championgt1]

This is from Toyota's website.

"If I am an owner of one of the affected vehicles, what action do I need to take?"

"Toyota is working quickly to prepare a correction remedy and will issue owner notifications in the future. No action is required at this time unless you feel you are experiencing this condition. If you are experiencing this condition, immediately contact your nearest assistance."

So let me get this straight, you want people to just keep driving them until something happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

A guy I work with has an 08 Tundra. He has parked it. The local dealership does not have an answer for him.

[andys]

I would bet that 60 minutes will barely touch this story.

For some reason, they had a burr up thier ass for Audi in the early 90's, but I would bet they give Toyota a pass. Came close to putting Audi out of business.

Well see. But "journalists" set their own priorities, Asshats!

The Audi "un-intended accelleration" was for real from my own eye witness: my neighbor damned near ran his wife over in his driveway when said Audi decided it wanted to suddenly take off. It was real scarey, to be sure.

Ok, so I tested my wife's '10 Camry just now. Driving with the gas pedal depressed I can shift from drive to neutral and the engine will race as expected (did this five times). Also while driving I simply switched the ignition off (obviously not into the lock position) and the engine shut down. The car was not difficult to steer, and the booster reservoir had plenty reserve to bring the car to an assisted stop. I'm curious as to what happened in the case of that police officer in San Diego not being able to bring his car to a stop and subsequently killing himself and his family? Some sort of (computer) system malfunction that affected those things that I could use to shut down my wife's car?

Andys

[0396]

Well this 'hits' home..here my story:
New 2004 S/4 Avant V8 A( 342 hp )... bought it for me... my ski trips..
Suck gas so I let the wife drive it, while I bought a Honda Civic..
One day I decided to drive it..while getting on the freeway, the gas pedal go 'stuck'!! I hit the brakes .. no help.. hit the pedal..no help.. traffic was coming up..so I put in in neutral ..let the motor rev.. then turn the key ONE CLICK to turn the motor off.... coasted to the side of the road - hit the pedal again and it came up...oh ya the AUDI dealer game me the f__ing wrong all weather mats!!! I called the dealer and they sent me the proper mats.. YES if any of my family was driving the car ..they would not be here - at least not 100%.... go thing I'm a car guy and track my car too! Other wise I might not be here....

[ghuff]

Here is how the VW/Audi/Bosch systems work to prevent runaway throttle.

Two approaches are currently used in the design of this sensor, but they are electrically identical. The throttle pedal assembly from an Audi S4 is shown here. Movement of the accelerator pedal manipulates two rotary potentiometers; unlike some electronic throttle engines, no back-up Bowden cable exists to connect accelerator pedal movement to the throttle blade. Two potentiometers are fitted to the sensor to allow redundancy - if one should fail, the other still lets the system operate

(IMG:http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1018/1083795mgaz0.jpg)