Anyone own one that had experienced the gas pedal issue?

Are these cars a manual/mechanical system, or drive by wire type deal? Cant find much info out there, other then "they dont know what is causing the issue".

That seems a bit off to me.

Just curious - so I thought I would ask the car guys....


Scott S

Think its fly by wire stuff only. They are cutting the gas pedal to make room for the floor mats to solve a engineering problem.

The floor mat problem is separate (according to Toyota) from the recent pedal hang or returns too slowly issue. Actually the best read about it is in today's WSJ which described how this problem surfaced in Europe some time ago, and some sort of fix was employed on Euro models only. Apparently the throttle pedal assembly is made here in the US.

All this of course is very unsettling to my wife, as has a '10 Camry. Called the dealer last night, and the service guy basically said "we know nothing yet." That's reassuring.

Andys

Toyota has just put a hold on sales of the affected models.

They're DBW, and they DO NOT have the feature incorporated in European cars that cuts the throttle if the brakes are engaged, even slightly. Pretty arrogant of Toyota to assume they didn't need that safety system. A separate issue is the keyless operation.

Here's a fairly recent story from CBS Channel 8 in San Diego
'Runaway cars' may be a widespread problem for Toyota, Lexus owners
Posted: Oct 19, 2009 6:54 AM PDT Updated: Oct 19, 2009 6:54 AM PDT
The deaths of an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family in a runaway Lexus, its brakes on fire, point to a troubling possibility that millions of Toyota and Lexus autos on American roads have serious throttle control problems.

The Los Angeles Times analyzed public records on runaway Lexus and Toyota autos, and reports that the malfunction that killed the San Diego-area family may have been far more serious than a floor mat jammed on a gas pedal.

The newspaper quotes experts who say that the keyless ignition, automatic transmission controls, and computerized gas throttle controls combine to make millions of Toyota and Lexus cars susceptible to a stuck gas pedal that overwhelms brakes, making it impossible for even a trained Highway Patrol officer to save his family's lives as their car sped at 120 mph.

"This is Toyota's Firestone," concluded Sean Kane, a Massachussetts auto safety consultant to The Times, referring to defective radial tires that caused a series of fatal crashes.

Lexus is the high-end brand name for cars built by Toyota. And Toyota's chief executive Akio Toyoda has apologized publicly for the wreck, indicating how serious the company views the matter.

"Customers bought our cars because they thought they were the safest," Toyoda said.

"But now we have given them cause for grave concern. I can't begin to express my remorse."

Mark Saylor was driving his wife, daughter and brother in law to the girl's soccer practice Aug. 28 when the in-law called 911 to report the car was hurtling up a La Mesa freeway, its throttle stuck. "We're in trouble ... there's no brakes," said Chris Lastrella.

The car went down a ramp and into an intersection, and the 911 system recorded screams as the Lexus hit another car and went down an embankment.

Toyota has blamed the stuck gas pedal on floor mats, and ordered the recall of 3.8 million cars dating back to 2004. But experts interviewed by The Times say there may have been other factors as well:

-- The Lexus sedan was equipped with an automatic transmission control that mimics old-fashioned manual shifters, making it difficult for a driver to shift to neutral while the car is moving.

-- The power assist brakes rely on a vacuum that diminishes as the engine revs faster, reducing the braking assistance to near zero if the engine is roaring.

-- The manual brakes are unable to stop a 272-horsepower engine getting an open throttle and moving 120 mph.

-- The keyless ignition system requires a driver to hold a dashboard button down for three seconds to turn the engine off, a fact that is disclosed in the vehicle manual but may not be obvious to a motorist.

And perhaps most-damning, the car's computers do not reduce gas flow to the engine when the brakes are applied.

The Times reports that the combination of design features may have been so impossible for a driver that even a 19-year CHP veteran could not regain control of the Lexus, which had been lent to the family while Saylor's wife's Lexus was in for service at a dealership.

The brakes on the doomed Lexus near San Diego were reportedly on fire as he car hurtled up the freeway.

The San Diego County sheriff's department and CHP are still investigating the August wreck that killed Saylor, his wife Cleofe Lastrella, 13-year-old daughter Mahala, and the brother in law, Chris Lastrella.

"I don't think you can stop a car going 120 mph and an engine at full throttle without power assist," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety, in an interview with The Times. A driver would have to exert 225 pounds of pressure on the foot pedal to generate enough force to engage the brakes.

The Times quoted experts who said the obvious remedy for shutting off the engine -- turning the car off -- was not apparent to a driver not well-versed in the three-second button push maneuver mentioned in the owners manual.


And shifting the gears to neutral may have been difficult, had the driver even thought if it, due to the configuration of the shifter, the newspaper reported.

The Cap'n

This just in! LA Times, this afternoon ............

http://tinyurl.com/yb95rcw

I suggest you (and your wife) read it ......................

The Cap'n

Its a mess. Dealers are pulling new and used inventory. Customers are calling in in droves.... rental fleets are pulling their units.... this one will take time to get over, but the good news is that Prius owners are fine....

Oh great! The things will run forever, even if you ignore the maintenance, and now apparently they will do it at full throttle!

No mechanical connection between the pedal and the throttle plate.
No mechanical connection between the shifter and the transmission.

Didn't we talk about DBW issues in a recent thread?

Yup,

They are packing more and more electronic crap into cars.

The formerly reliable Volvo, Saabs, and others are filled with huge amounts of electronic crap that fails item by item and cost a fortune to fix.

Price an electronic controlled door lock or electric window and compare the price to a simple mechanical one.

It became all the rage to phase out mechanical throttle cables and replace them with sleek electronic ones. There was even a hugely famous patent law battle over that.

I can't wait until somebody figures out how to broadcast malicious code to the electronic management systems in cars and cause the throttle controls to go crazy.

I like my Camry. It has a 5 speed manual, a throttle cable, and a clutch. Evil asked me why anyone would buy one

And here's why.

You mean to tell me that a trained officer didn't think to turn the car off or put the car in neutral?

I know you have split seconds to do these things but ahhhh....

Damn Prius, why couldn't they have been the only one to actually have the problem? I hate those cars.

From that specific problem, anyway. They have their own software issues, mostly with sudden stalling under various conditions. The Cap'n

Mechanical systems can stick too. I floored my '73 L82 Vette many years ago on the Santa Ana fwy late on a Sunday night. Let up at about 95MPH, but the pedal stayed on the floor. Had my hand ready on the ignition switch while kicking at the pedal and the car accellerating wildly. It finally popped back up, but boy it got my attention! Car had 28K miles on it at the time; it was completely stock.

Andys

My $.02... I'll bet the variable resister or what ever signals the computer comes from China.

I would bet that 60 minutes will barely touch this story.

For some reason, they had a burr up thier ass for Audi in the early 90's, but I would bet they give Toyota a pass. Came close to putting Audi out of business.

Well see. But "journalists" set their own priorities, Asshats!

I have an '05 Tacoma. I got a letter from the dealer with details about floor mats and that they were going to call me to schedule a trim for my gas pedal. My truck is drive by wire, but the ignition is keyed, not push start and I can easily down shift or put it in neutral while driving. Car companies have been killing their customers since the dawn of the automobile. Let's hope this latest problem translates into better and safer cars from all manufacturers.

This is from Toyota's website.

"If I am an owner of one of the affected vehicles, what action do I need to take?"

"Toyota is working quickly to prepare a correction remedy and will issue owner notifications in the future. No action is required at this time unless you feel you are experiencing this condition. If you are experiencing this condition, immediately contact your nearest assistance."

So let me get this straight, you want people to just keep driving them until something happens.

A guy I work with has an 08 Tundra. He has parked it. The local dealership does not have an answer for him.

The Audi "un-intended accelleration" was for real from my own eye witness: my neighbor damned near ran his wife over in his driveway when said Audi decided it wanted to suddenly take off. It was real scarey, to be sure.

Ok, so I tested my wife's '10 Camry just now. Driving with the gas pedal depressed I can shift from drive to neutral and the engine will race as expected (did this five times). Also while driving I simply switched the ignition off (obviously not into the lock position) and the engine shut down. The car was not difficult to steer, and the booster reservoir had plenty reserve to bring the car to an assisted stop. I'm curious as to what happened in the case of that police officer in San Diego not being able to bring his car to a stop and subsequently killing himself and his family? Some sort of (computer) system malfunction that affected those things that I could use to shut down my wife's car?

Andys

Well this 'hits' home..here my story:
New 2004 S/4 Avant V8 A( 342 hp )... bought it for me... my ski trips..
Suck gas so I let the wife drive it, while I bought a Honda Civic..
One day I decided to drive it..while getting on the freeway, the gas pedal go 'stuck'!! I hit the brakes .. no help.. hit the pedal..no help.. traffic was coming up..so I put in in neutral ..let the motor rev.. then turn the key ONE CLICK to turn the motor off.... coasted to the side of the road - hit the pedal again and it came up...oh ya the AUDI dealer game me the f__ing wrong all weather mats!!! I called the dealer and they sent me the proper mats.. YES if any of my family was driving the car ..they would not be here - at least not 100%.... go thing I'm a car guy and track my car too! Other wise I might not be here....

Here is how the VW/Audi/Bosch systems work to prevent runaway throttle.

Two approaches are currently used in the design of this sensor, but they are electrically identical. The throttle pedal assembly from an Audi S4 is shown here. Movement of the accelerator pedal manipulates two rotary potentiometers; unlike some electronic throttle engines, no back-up Bowden cable exists to connect accelerator pedal movement to the throttle blade. Two potentiometers are fitted to the sensor to allow redundancy - if one should fail, the other still lets the system operate

As can be seen here, the outputs of the potentiometers are identical but for an offset. Cars equipped with automatic transmissions do not have an additional kickdown switch in the assembly; instead a 'mechanical pressure point' is used to give the feel of a kickdown switch.



In the event that the accelerator position sensor fails, the lack of any mechanical connection between the accelerator and the throttle blade requires that sophisticated 'limp home' techniques are in place. The Audi S4 uses two techniques:
Emergency running program #1

This occurs when a single accelerator position potentiometer fails.

* Throttle position is limited to a defined value;
* In the case of implausible signals from the two potentiometers, the lower value of the two is used;
* The brake light signal is used to indicate when idling speed should be enacted;
* The fault lamp is illuminated.

Emergency running program #2

This occurs when both accelerator position potentiometers fail.

* The engine runs only at idle speed;
* The fault lamp is illuminated.

Interestingly, if in the Audi the accelerator and brake pedals are depressed together, the throttle valve is automatically closed to a defined small opening. However, if the brake is pressed and depressing of the accelerator then follows this, the torque request is enabled. I assume that the latter provision is solely for those who like to left-foot brake, with applications of power used to balance the car!

The Audi S4 electronic throttle valve consists of a DC motor, reduction gear drive and dual feedback angle sensors. It is again for reasons of redundancy that two potentiometers are used for angle feedback. However, unlike the accelerator position sensor, these sensors have opposite resistance characteristics to one another, as shown below.



While continuous sensing of throttle blade position does occur, the ECU recognises four key functional positions of the throttle blade:

* Lower mechanical limit stop - the valve is totally shut.
* Lower electrical limit stop - the lower limit used in normal operation. This position does not totally close the valve, thus preventing contact wear of the housing and throttle blade.
* Emergency running position - the position of the valve when it is not energised. This allows sufficient airflow for an idle speed a little higher than standard.
* Upper electrical limit stop - the blade is fully open.

The control system has a self-learning function, whereby the state of the mechanicals within the electronic throttle (eg spring tensions) is determined by the evaluation of the throttle valve's reaction speed.

As with the Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor, sophisticated limp-home techniques are available should the Electronic Throttle Control Actuator develop problems. These include:
Emergency running program #1

This occurs when an angle sensor within the throttle body fails or an implausible signal is received. Required is an intact throttle angle sensor and plausible mass airflow measurement.

* Torque increasing requests from other systems are ignored (eg from the Engine Braking Control);
* The fault lamp is illuminated.

Emergency running program #2

This occurs if the throttle valve drive fails or malfunctions; it requires that both throttle valve potentiometers recognize the Emergency Running Position of the throttle blade.

* The throttle valve drive is switched off so that the valve defaults to the small emergency running opening;
* As far as possible, ignition angle control and turbo boost control(!) are used to execute driver torque demands.
* The fault lamp is illuminated.

Emergency running program #3

This occurs if the throttle valve position is unknown and/or if the throttle valve is not definitely known to be in the Emergency Running Position.

* The throttle valve drive is switched off so that the valve (hopefully!) defaults to the small emergency running opening;
* The engine speed is limited to approximately 1200 rpm by fuel injection control;
* The fault lamp is illuminated.

An Audi schematic diagram showing the operation of the electronic throttle system is shown here.



As you can see, Bosch engineers have been very careful to ensure that a failure of the electronic throttle system will not cause the car to suddenly have full power - or a stalled engine.




I will stick with my bosch electronics, what fails does not kill me and usually is just annoying.

Apparently the pedal assembliesare made by CTS inustries, Elkhart IN to Toyota specifications.

And they claimed that there are fewer than a dozen instances of locked full throttle.

Wonder if they used the MIL-P-FP rule, (make it like the frickin print) or the "build to spec" rule. If it's build to spec, then it's gonna be built a little differently than a Toyota design. Interesting to see who is at fault.

From my experience with fixing problems, many times a "cost improvement" was involved.

HAve a 05 Avalon.......94K miles ...Never an issue although that may not mean a thing. Stuck throttles are always a shock and test your ability to react..Mine was at Alameda cty fair ground in a autocross heading for the finish line and all the spectators. Clutch in oops kill the engine. BUt......can't image the accelation needed to get to 95 before even I could react.
TOT

Just bring a big anchor with you and tie it to the rear axle.

Car goes crazy, throw out the anchor.

John

From what I have read it was a loaner car with a keyless entry and ignition. To turn the engine off you have to press and hold the Start button for 3 seconds - since it wasn't his car, he didn't know that, or couldn't do it in the panic. It was also stated that it was difficult to shift into neutral while moving (don't know why) and that his brakes were on fire by the time he crashed, trying to slow it down. :-(

No mechanical connection between the shifter and the transmission, perhaps?

Studies by independent and government automotive research organizations in several countries have found NOT A SINGLE incident where the car was at fault in the so-called "unintended acceleration" scare involving, among others, Audi (you probably never heard of the others). NOT ONE. Every single reported case was thoroughly investigated by organizations other than Audi, and Audi (along with the other manufacturers involved) was 100% absolved. Never heard about that, either, right? Audi had every right, and the legal grounds, to sue CBS a*s off, but chose not to do so. Might have been a bad thing to drive a TV network off the air, right? Or maybe they should have, considering the disaster TV is today. IIRC, BTW, not a single claim made it through the courts.

The Cap'n

Believe me Cap'n, I was one of those skeptics with the whole Audi "un-intended accelleration" deal until I saw it happen with my own eyes. The person involved was a car guy; Bio= vehicle designer/stylist, race car designer (CanAm winner), Art Center instructor in vehicle design, and more than I can post in short. I also did a couple of vehicle projects with him; PM me if you're interested. Anyway, Audi factory sent a Rep to his home, and purchased the car from him on the spot and trailered it away. Though that initself is not an admission of a problem, I suspect (as my neighbor speculated) Audi wanted to do a complete evaluation of a known occurance. He never heard from Audi after that, that I'm aware of.

None of the above however, would not keep me from considering an Audi purchase. I suspect there are "others" like in my '73 Vette experience that goes either un-reported or flys under the radar.

Andys

And my family wonders why I don't bother with "new" cars. . . Things have just gotten needlessly over complicated to keep folks going to the dealers for maint. That's crap!!

Reason #23963 to drive a stick?

Can't wait for the day that clutches become electronic too.

Just remembered their old slogan. Oh what feeling Toyota !

Thanks for the education...now you should also post thin on the Audi boards too.

Substitute goodness, gracious "Great Balls of Fire" for "My Brakes are on Fire!".

I have been thinking same thing. Part may have been assembled here, but I bet fualty component came from some crack pot manufacturing floor in China. Being involved in manufacturing over there I see crappy quality in components made there all the time.

When are good companies going to realize you cant shortcut quality on critical systems?

Regardless of where it was built bet toyota is losing billions now. Their reputation has taken huge hit - sort of amazing that such a large company would allow this type of issue to go so long that they virtually stop selling cars!

And some people want real drive by wire with no 'unreliable' mechanical linkages. Easy to implement variable ratio steering bla bla bla. No thank you sir. The though of my 750ft/lbs torque DBW diesel truck going wide open is not fun, that thing totally overwhelms the big brakes at full throttle (fun for making lots of tire smoke!)
I like my nice simple 914 and 1980 everything mechanical Volvo and will be driving them for a long time.
Steve

Well:I HAVE 2007 CAMRY so I am thinking of wearing my motorcycle helmet.If you get pulled over speeding,just blame it on the car.I know this is serious,but there is not much ,I CAN DO except wait for the recall stuff.I just bought this used,the end of october.My last car was a camry, I put 212,000 miles on before I SOLD IT. Put your foot on the brake,and the car in neutral.Pull over turn off ignition.Jaymann

Think Toyotas are bad....

Fly Airbus. Then you can enjoy a several thousand foot drop while the computers think about reseting themselves.....