potential issue with starter when HOT? Options

[JF914]

Has anyone had a problem with the starter after a long drive? Driving on a long trip. After second gas stop, all it does is spin. Does not engage and turn over engine?
Will this cure itself when cool?

Is that what folks mean by the "dreaded hot start starter issue". Never happened before, but then again, have never driven over 150 miles at a clip.

[SirAndy]

No.

The "dreaded hot start starter issue" is when the starter is hot and all you get is a "click" when you turn the key and the starter won't run at all.

If the starter turns but doesn't turn the engine, i would assume the starter gear does not engage ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Andy

[Tom_T]

Has anyone had a problem with the starter after a long drive? Driving on a long trip. After second gas stop, all it does is spin. Does not engage and turn over engine?
Will this cure itself when cool?

Is that what folks mean by the "dreaded hot start starter issue". Never happened before, but then again, have never driven over 150 miles at a clip.

Let me add that I agree with Andy that the usual dreaded is the click - no joy problem, usually due to heat expansion freezing the motor & solenoid. However, this sounds like the related dread - where the solenoid is to hot, expands & won't engage the gear & the starter spins.

Yup - that's it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The starter & solenoid get hot, & either the solenoid can't push the starter in to engage &/or the starter won't turn at all. It's also an intermittent problem on other Porsches & VW's, in part due to the heat of the engine.

It usually indicates that it's time for a new starter &/or solenoid soon.

Yes, it usually cures itself when the engine cools down. If not or if in a hurry, have someone try starting it with the key, while you're under the back end with a hammer or something to tap the starter as they're engaging the key to the start position. That will usually break it loose.

I had a similar problem last summer on a trip in our 88 VW Westy, & my son & I double teamed to do that to get it started, then replaced with a rebuilt started at our destination - GoWesty for some other work anyway! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Some folks buy the thermal blanket for the starter to insulate it from the engine heat. I've seen them sold at PP & probably others too.

I hope that didn't happen to Dan? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[JF914]

Has anyone had a problem with the starter after a long drive? Driving on a long trip. After second gas stop, all it does is spin. Does not engage and turn over engine?
Will this cure itself when cool?

Is that what folks mean by the "dreaded hot start starter issue". Never happened before, but then again, have never driven over 150 miles at a clip.

Let me add that I agree with Andy that the usual dreaded is the click - no joy problem, usually due to heat expansion freezing the motor & solenoid. However, this sounds like the related dread - where the solenoid is to hot, expands & won't engage the gear & the starter spins.

Yup - that's it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The starter & solenoid get hot, & either the solenoid can't push the starter in to engage &/or the starter won't turn at all. It's also an intermittent problem on other Porsches & VW's, in part due to the heat of the engine.

It usually indicates that it's time for a new starter &/or solenoid soon.

Yes, it usually cures itself when the engine cools down. If not or if in a hurry, have someone try starting it with the key, while you're under the back end with a hammer or something to tap the starter as they're engaging the key to the start position. That will usually break it loose.

I had a similar problem last summer on a trip in our 88 VW Westy, & my son & I double teamed to do that to get it started, then replaced with a rebuilt started at our destination - GoWesty for some other work anyway! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Some folks buy the thermal blanket for the starter to insulate it from the engine heat. I've seen them sold at PP & probably others too.

I hope that didn't happen to Dan? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Called Triple A and was able to jump start the car. Said that is was more of a "humm" noise when I spoke to him. AAA tech thought that the battery terminals may have needed cleaning, but sounded like he was on his way.

Will see about the starter this AM. I hope it was a fluke versus the "dreaded starter issue", but was hard to get details when calling in from the road.

Will report back later, but this will be good to have diagnosed by a professional when at the final destination.

[Gint]

Your pm said a hmmm noise which I assumed to be the fuel pump.

No, if the ignition switch causes the starter to spin but not engage, that's a starter solenoid problem, not the standard 914 hot start issue. But a roll or push start at every stop will still get him home. BTDT as I said already, NorCal to Denver.

[charliew]

It could be just a loose connection at the solenoid and the heat helps weaken the connection and then there isn't enough current to pick the solenoid. BUT if the starters spinning then the solenoid is working and the starter gear is not engaging with the flywheel right? I think the vw is like the sbc if I remember correctly. The solenoid must be energized to make the contact that spins the starter. The hot start is merely not enough current flow through bad connections to overcome the heat in the starter.

[gendent]

I concour, it is the solenoid failing to engage the starter motor with the flywheel. I have had all the dreaded "fail to start" issues in the last few months and after reading many search articles I finally replaced the starter and solenoid with all new stuff. The fuel pump had already been moved to the front.It is a really straight forward task as long as you realize the top bolt is indexed into a lobe in the starter housing casting. It is released by a 17mm nut accessible in the engine compartment ( the neg ground strap was secured here in my case). I got a high trque starter from hi performance products and it seems to have resolved at least this problem for now.

Jim

[McMark]

1. Clean the connections at both ends of the battery ground cable, and at the transmission ground strap.
2. Clean both ends of the positive cable.
3. Check battery voltage at the battery terminals with a voltmeter.
4. Get the car started, make sure the charging light goes out and check voltage at the battery terminals.

Report your numbers here. Your battery could be dying. It's the easiest to check, so start there. If the battery turns out to measure fine and all the connections are clean, then you can pull the starter (not too hard) and have it tested at most FLAPS. Your starter might be demanding a higher load because of failing components.

[Gint]

Good advice Mark, but we're talking about a non-car guy that's driving a 914 from Colorado to... PacNorWest somewhere. Washington or Oregon I can't remember which. Definitely all good things to look into when he does get home. I don't think he has any tools with him at all either. BTW, it could also be the electrical portion of the ignition switch.

In the meantime, John, the next time he calls, tell him to roll start a 914. He can get all the way home that way and not have to keep calling AAA. Provided of course the charging system and battery are OK anyway.

[76-914]

No.

The "dreaded hot start starter issue" is when the starter is hot and all you get is a "click" when you turn the key and the starter won't run at all.

If the starter turns but doesn't turn the engine, i would assume the starter gear does not engage ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Andy

So Andy, If there is no noticeable clicking sound is it still the dreaded hot start starter issue?

[McMark]

Yup.

[Gint]

Most of the hot start issues I've seen did not involve a click at all.

[76-914]

SOB. Then that is what appened to me last week. So the fix is a new starter or insulate the starter? I have a spare starter. History/condition unknow.

[jt914-6]

Years ago when I had my 1.7 I found I had to push start it or get under it and short out the cable from the battery on the starter to the solenoid wire (yellow) with a screwdriver and it would start. Of course you would have to have the key in "on" position.

[Joe Bob]

Best to pull the starter and have it rebuilt CORRECTLY by a local guy. That way you can control what is fixed.

The remans from Manny Schmoe and Jackoff suck and they only fix what doesn't obviously work and sell them cheap..... they can afford to replace them for the warranty or in some cases lifetime.....but they don't cover labor or towing.

Cheap versus reliability...your choice.

Another idea is a 911 starter, the SR68X, 1.5hp and a little more robust. OR, the mini starters you see being sold.

Some have fitment issues so watch out.

[Cupomeat]

Years ago when I had my 1.7 I found I had to push start it or get under it and short out the cable from the battery on the starter to the solenoid wire (yellow) with a screwdriver and it would start. Of course you would have to have the key in "on" position.

Yes, this "procedure" worked for me for many years but all I had to do was make the started move a little (just touch short the hot terminal to the solenoid tab) and then the normal ignition key/switch worked again. This was preferable to starting the car above my head.

SO, I tried getting a new Bosch starter which worked for a few years, but the final "fix" (and there is HOT debate about this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)) was to put a relay in for better voltage/current to the solenoid.

Some here will say that the solenoid is not a fix and just a bandaid, but as given my experience, it fixed mine.

So, if you touch your solenoid lead with a hot (12v) lead, does the starter turn (crank) or is it still dead. If it still doesn't turn it is in need of repair.

[Dirty Evo]

Years ago when I had my 1.7 I found I had to push start it or get under it and short out the cable from the battery on the starter to the solenoid wire (yellow) with a screwdriver and it would start. Of course you would have to have the key in "on" position.

Yes, this "procedure" worked for me for many years but all I had to do was make the started move a little (just touch short the hot terminal to the solenoid tab) and then the normal ignition key/switch worked again. This was preferable to starting the car above my head.

SO, I tried getting a new Bosch starter which worked for a few years, but the final "fix" (and there is HOT debate about this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)) was to put a relay in for better voltage/current to the solenoid.

Some here will say that the solenoid is not a fix and just a bandaid, but as given my experience, it fixed mine.

So, if you touch your solenoid lead with a hot (12v) lead, does the starter turn (crank) or is it still dead. If it still doesn't turn it is in need of repair.

Yeah back when I had my 914, had same issue... actually with 3 diff starter motors, and would always crawl under to start it (or push start). I was 18 years old, so wasnt' a big deal for me. My dad fixed it the same way you did... put a relay in there to somehow change the power to the solenoid and it always worked fine after that.

[charliew]

The fix if the starter is a good starter is to go through every connection from the battery through the ignition switch to the starter and then make sure the ground is good. The vw start circuit is very long and old. The forever fix on vw's was the additional relay that provides a good 12v circuit that is only about a foot long. The ignition sw then only has to pick a small relay not the starter solenoid through about 12 feet of old wire and connectors. We were doing this on relatively new vw's in the late 60's.

[dank]

Nice, a topic dedicated to my travel failures (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Battery metered fine and the connections were clean. Car wouldn't start even after it had cooled overnight. Guy thought the starter was jamming, as he was able to get it going after taking a screwdriver to arc across the starter terminals.

Replacing the starter today. Thanks everyone!

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

Actually Bosch was aware of the problem of the solenoid becoming so hot under the car that the resistance became too high and the slight voltage drop between the ignition switch and the starter was enough to not let the solenoid work. The easiest fix is to install the Bosch factory hot start kit. It is quick and easy and cures the problem via a factory kit. (we call it the Bosch apology kit!) It is only about 20 bucks and comes with easy plug in wires in line fuse and bosch relay.