SOT: 944/968 advice, a friend has the fever :) Options

[corsepervita]

I absolutely love my 944. However, I want a 914 far more.

Anyway.... with that said... I recall reading an interesting article that said a long time ago when the 944 first came out, for a while, they actually EXCEEDED the maintenance costs of SOME 911 models. I can believe it after getting the quotes from a local dealer...

I was quoted $1500 for a timing belt replacement from Carrera Motors here in Bend and nearly crapped my pants at the quote.

I bought the tools and timing belt to do it myself for just a hair under $200. It's a 4 hour job to do (that's no joke) but with some patience, it's quite doable. Only thing to remember is to remember to follow the procedure exactly and check your water pump too (since they are notorious for leaking if not replaced or checked with a new belt, the tension from a new belt can cause them to leak, no joke).

The thing about a 944 is that they are 10x more complex and expensive to work on than the 924. I love my 924 to death, but as a driver's car, I love my 924 more any day of the week more than my 944. However, the 944 makes a fabulous daily driver, has a lot of the simple pleasures that come with the ease of a daily (like power windows, power steering, power mirrors, etc etc) so they are not only fun to drive but have the simplicities to go with it.

Here is a list of what I Look out on the 944 for (I've helped many friends purchase them):

- Clutch master cyl - if original, has a high risk rate of "on it's way out" or "could be going out" or "is going out" if there is any "mystery sticking" on the pedal. Easy to check for, just make sure the pedal goes in and out properly and make sure there is no leaking up around the boot near the clutch pedal. Just crawl on your back (fun as that is) and look up and behind near the clutch pedal. IF you replace a clutch master cyl, do the slave too, do NOT just do one, the extra pressure will wear the other out prematurely and the last thing you want is it going kaput on you.

- Torque tube bearings.... any rattling you hear on hard accel or decel is usually the TT bearings. They rattle and sound like a bunch of buckshot in a can rattling around. Unmistakable sound.

- Crappy wiring jobs - a lot of 944s that i have seen have had some real rigged wiring jobs to fix stuff they couldn't quite figure out. largest is the positive battery terminal, make sure it hasn't been tampered with, if it has, quickest fix to the 3 cables running off of it is to put them into one large connection going back to the cable so there isn't amp loss.

- Clutch issues (since porsche used those rubber clutches... you'll hear a huge CLUNK on decel and bad drivetrain lash) this means the actual rubber is breaking down and is on it's last leg. Unless you really want to do a clutch job, make sure you listen hard and make sure it responds well.

- Hesitation - common on some of them as the AFM wears out, it'll wear grooves in the small plate inside the AFM. You can buy them for about $250 for a refurb'd one, or move the needle inside to get better wear on a new part of the plate inside to fix it. You'll notice it really hard under acceleration. Basically, the AFM operates like a big door, as the door opens up the needle moves down the plate. If grooves are worn in it, you get a weird electric surge and it reads wrong and will go super rich or super lean. So you might get a variation power through the RPM range.

- Check the HATCH! They leak like an SOB! That weather stripping goes out and you get to smell fumes and also get water inside your cabin area (which is the start of all your rust worries)

- As mentioned above already - battery tray. Those drains get plugged and it causes issues. Easy to clean out and check. 924 is way more notorious for rust than the 944, but any of them can rust with enough damage.

- Fuse box - if there was any moisture in the car at all the 924 and 944 are always notorious for having horrific fuse boxes. My 944 wasn't bad, and was really good actually. My 924 was a horror story. Check the fusebox, make sure it looks like it's in good shape.

- Hydraulic lifters - check for a ticking. It's NORMAL for the engine to tick at startup. It should go away within 5 or so minutes by the time the car has gone a bit past the first bar and reaches operating temperature, at which point it should sound like any other car for the most part. If it pursues, and still is clackityclacking then it's likely a lifter. If I recall they're $65ish each. May as well replace them all if one is on it's way out.

- Injectors - check around the base of them where they go into the engine. Make sure it's sealed. The kits are cheap, if there is any seeping what so ever, don't drive it till you've fixed it.

- Fuel lines.... make sure they're in good shape. There are SOME models where the routing was different, and ran up near the exhaust, and if anything happens with it and it starts leaking causes engine fires, not good. I believe it was the 951. Can't remember off the top of my head. Good idea to check them no matter what the model is.

- Timing belt - as mentioned above a must, as the water pump as well. Belts should be tentioned to 27lbs. You can get a "kriket" tool to do that from 944online, they sell a whole kit for a kickass price. Includes all the stuff you need for a belt job. People say they are "not as good as the porsche tool" but I've not yet had an issue with using it, ever. I'd much rather spend $50 on a tool that can do the same thing as an $800 tool if it achieves the same thing and the same result and you can figure out what you're doing. A lot of people will agree and disagree. Honestly, if you're worried about it, have a dealer do it. If you trust your work, do it your own way. I've used the kriket on my car and friend's cars, but you have to check double check and triple check your work. I've heard of guys doing it by hand tensioning it, but there's no way in hell i'd do that. Anyway... make sure the belt is done at the right intervals, DO NOT SKIMP on your belts, PERIOD.

While you're down there may as well do oil seals and all the other maintenance items....
(you should also recheck after 500 miles and retention if you use a kriket or porsche tool to be on the safe side to ensure it's properly done and not stretched a lot... i know it's a PITA, but unless you like replacing valves...)

- Floor pan and brackets - depending on how people decided to get in the car (people who hop in vs get in) and the kind of abuse it's taken, I have seen floor pans slightly bent down and brackets broken over it. (seen it twice, and also on my own). You can use a jack to correct the pan CAREFULLY, and can get new brackets welded in. It's pretty easy to tell if your seat is crooked and awkward and bent to one side as you're driving down the street. Make sure you at least check the brackets, as even if the pan isn't bent, I've seen the brackets cracked and busted. The shearing strength on those 10mm bolts is pretty good, but i'd rather have all 4 and know i have all 4, than 3 or 2.

- Tail lamps - the seal sometimes fails around where the lense is, and water gets in, and causes corrosion inside where the housing is. You end up with electric issues and sometimes working turn signals. Had this happen on my 924 and 944, seen it on other 924 and 944s as well many times. It's not hard to fix, you have to pull the housing where the bulbs attach and dremel all the stuff down and make fresh connections. But it's easy to unscrew the back of the housing off, pull it, and check for yourself, rather than find out later.

- Weird temperatures - Normal NA years have a gauge that looks just like the 924. It goes from left to right. The later models have the updated face that goes down to up. On the early years, the gauge should stay between the 1st and 1/2 bar on normal operation, at lights and on a hot day it'll go up sometimes past it and the fan should kick on and bring it down. If it doesn't kick on the thermo switch in the radiator is going out, something is wrong with the fans, or you have a circulation issue with the radiator. I had a stat go out with a plugged radiator at the same time, as well as issues with hoses, misc leaks and a bunch of rats nest issues crawl up at the same time. Long story short I ended up replacing half the cooling system. Make sure the prior owner didn't use "Radiator stopleak" or as it's commonly know "Ratiator-stop-working..."

- Power steering - make sure it's actually ATF or the correct mineral oil in there and NOT POWER STEERING FLUID. Normal PS fluid will get past the seals on the rack and in parts of the system and start leaking. And let me tell you it is a PITA to get it to stop. If it's older, it IS somewhat normal for the power steering to sound like the wailing death at sub freezing temps. This last winter there were some times we hit -5 and -10F, and my pump sounded like it was having a heart attack. In these cases you can mix some thinner stuff with it. I like ATF in mine (check your manual) but in cases where it was really cold i'd drain the rack and use mineral and ATF to thin it down so the pump didn't work as hard. Most people won't be driving your 944 at those temps... but just in case....

- Driver side splash guard - if cracked/missing/broken can in some rare cases let water through there. Last thing you want is water getting sucked up into the intake.

On that note... check the airbox for cracking. In some cases people get impatient in removing the airbox, crack it trying to take it out, and you get leaks. You can seal it up though, easy to do. But make sure you inspect that, simple to do, has 4 screws if i recall keep it in, pop it off, pull the filter, make sure it's sealed, easy to do.

- Rubber lining for harness. Easy to check as well. Up past the clutch, it's just a big rubber lining that keeps moisture out, make sure it's not cracked. Easiest way is to just pop the hood, pull it out in broad daylight and make sure you don't see any light up through there. Another way for water to make it's way in there.

- Clutch disc material - there is a really good write-up on clarks-garage about how to check the clutch material left by measuring in MM the distance between the maintenance hole and the slave cyl tip. Little cap that comes off.



All simple things that get overlooked on the cars. There's more but this is stuff off the top of my head I can think of... and I'm way too tired to keep typing. But have your buddy look on clarks-garage.com for maintenance procedures so he knows what he's getting into, unless he's got deep pockets to have a stealership do it for him. Most the stuff really isn't that bad, it's just patience and having the right tools for the job, from there, it's not so bad.

It seems damn near impossible to find a good 944 anymore. I've put blood, sweat and tears into mine to get it mechanically in as sound of shape as it is. Such a good car.

I've thoroughly enjoyed every moment it has provided me. Though granted, it's not my 924, and I enjoy my 924 so much more.... it's still a good car. Has a great feel and they are a fun experience.

Tell your friend best of luck with finding a good car.

PS: If he gets more interested in 924s or anything.... I have plenty of advice I can offer there LOL! They're also about 1/2 the cost to maintain over a 924....

[BigDBass]

Wow, corsepervita, thanks for taking the time to share all that! Very interesting read. There's a 924 with auto trans locally for $2900 that I keep threatening my wife to buy for her. She's not going for it so far...

[tat2dphreak]

it has been suggested that a 78-79ish 911 can be had for near the 10k tag, and would be a more reliable,and less maintenance intensive car for weekend street driving... he was also told to budget close to 2k a year for maintenance items if a shop does them... thoughts?

[Cap'n Krusty]

If you can work on a 914 trans you can certainly do most of the work on a 944. They're just big Audi motors. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Really, they're not that bad, they don't really even rust. The turbo if it's not tweaked will deliver a reliable power for a daily driver that is awesome.

Would you like to share with us just what Audi motor the 944 has? I'm sure it'll be a big surprise ........................

The Cap'n

[Cap'n Krusty]

it has been suggested that a 78-79ish 911 can be had for near the 10k tag, and would be a more reliable,and less maintenance intensive car for weekend street driving... he was also told to budget close to 2k a year for maintenance items if a shop does them... thoughts?

Lotsa 10K 911SCs out there, but how many of 'em have busted head studs and/or oil leaks at the case seam? Hint: A lot of 'em. Turns your 10K 911 into a 20K 911 real fast ......................

The Cap'n

[tat2dphreak]

agreed, but I think it was assumed to find one that the head studs have been updated and replaced properly. we'd have a mechanic check any 944 or 911 before he buys it to avoid this type of thing.

[Cap'n Krusty]

That severely restricts the number of 10K cars from which to choose .........

The Cap'n

[tat2dphreak]

That severely restricts the number of 10K cars from which to choose .........

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) true. I've tried to tell him that budget might need to be stretched if he wants to extend to 911s but if the $2000/year(average) maintenance of 944/968s is accurate(he's not well versed in working on cars, not that I am, either, but he moreso) then expanding the budget and waiting for a proper 911 might be smarter in the long haul. so long as the maintenance on a late 70s 911 isn't ALSO in the 20k/ year average.

[dion9146]

I owned a 1987 944S for 18 months. I loved that car, but I also spent $2000 in 'normal' maintenance - belts, rollers, water pump, tires, exhaust, heater control fix - and it was going to need a new clutch soon....and the car had all of the maintenance records from day one so it was well taken care of. Unfortunately, there are too many 924/944's out there that didn't get the proper maintenance so buying one without records is risky IMO.

I constantly feel the urge to pickup another 944, but I'm also constantly resisting it too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[corsepervita]

it has been suggested that a 78-79ish 911 can be had for near the 10k tag, and would be a more reliable,and less maintenance intensive car for weekend street driving... he was also told to budget close to 2k a year for maintenance items if a shop does them... thoughts?

For a 944 or the 911?

For a 944 that sound definitely possible, maybe more depending on the condition. You have to factor that a belt job is going to range in a huge bracket between $1k to $2k (i've got some really wacky out there quotes from dealers, most common was $1500ish).

I'd say the most common maintenance items are the belts, I was told every 3 years or 40,000 miles (which to me sounds about fair) but I am not 100% sure on the exact interval. I try and treat it like my Ducati and just do it anyway and do it early since it's not worth risking the engine lol.

If it's in absolutely pristine shape (car has been PI'd and needs nothing) then I'd say $2k is more than enough per year, long as they budget longterm for the BIG maintenance items like belts/water pump, etc.

Mostly it's the misc weird off the wall stuff that'll get ya.

I'd absolutely recommend having the car PI'd by someone who /really/ knows 944 cars if they pull the trigger on one.

If you want a really good idea of what can go crazy on a 944, go check my for sale thread and look at what I've replaced in the past year and a half I've owned my 944. That was for a "fair" and "good" (somewhere inbetween) 944.

[Root_Werks]

I've had.....4-5 944's. Nice cars. The last one owned was for my wife. We bought it, she was driving it.......87' I believe. We had only had the 944 for a couple of weeks. Not much paper work, timing belt had 40k on it so I knew it was a time bomb waiting to explode. But figured we had a few weeks right?

Ordered all parts the day after we bought the car. After about a week, I had all the goodies, the normal stuff including WP, guide blah, blah. Not my first 944 timing belt job by far.

14th or 15th day with 944, I had plans to do the job the coming up weekend. Wife and I are sitting at a stop light. Car dies. I didn't even have to turn it over. I knew what happened. Pushed into gas station, left key in ignition, called up a buddy of mine "Want a 944, key's in it titles in the mail to you. Don't ever call me about it." He knew the issue from my tone, jumped on it, never saw it again.

That was.....4 years ago, haven't looked back since.

[dion9146]

Now that is a classic story.

I drove around on pins and needles until I got the belts changed. I was always waiting for something to break.

Dion

[iamchappy]

My son has been driving around in my 924s since last February without a breakdown other than him overfilling the engine with oil last month, the anxiety worrying about when the call is coming in for the next major breakdown is aging me.
After i originally purchased the car it was something new every week i had to fix on it.
I got a call on Sunday that the car was in an accident in a parking lot, the front got a little banged up and the hood is tweaked but I'm not fixing it i hope it will go away.

I do like the looks of the car and it is a nice car to drive, if i had a real nice one i think i could be happy with it and the maintenance if it was me driving the car, instead of my son.

[Root_Werks]

I really like 944's, just haven't been back to one since the "incodent" as my wife and I like to call it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Dr Evil]

Thanks to all the bad influence on this thread, Firstknight13, and Scotty B, I am looking at picking up a 924 turbo, possibly as soon as this weekend. Ray knows of a great candidate for $1500, and a local guy claims to have one for sale, with about 90Kmi, one owner, and newer paint for $2000. I trust the one Ray knows about more, though as the local guy is questionable at times. Gonna fix up the suby and sell it now that I have the bus to drive stuff arrond in.

[Dr Evil]

Wow, I wish I had the time
http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/1667207176.html

[Dr Evil]

Well, the guy called about the one in CT and it sounds like a good enough deal, but it needs a little work. The environmental controls need to be fixed, the speedo doesnt work, it needs tires as it has been sitting for a few years. About 2 years ago it got a new turbo and fuel pumps. It has the 5 lugs with the 928 style wheels (my preference) and that means all wheel disk, IIRC. Still, I really do not need another project. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
1980, 130Kmi.

I just checked out the local one and here is what I saw:
- Hole under battery tray (easy fix for me)
- 4 lug cast aluminum wheels
- front disk, rear drum
- Dog leg (914 style) shifter/tranz
- 1980, 92Kmi
- 6-7 out of 10

It looks like this will be a passing obsession. I called Paul at European Import Maintenance center and he was not to positive about the 924 turbo in general (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Root_Werks]

The 931's??? is that them? Are fine cars just like anything else that's older like that.

If I was to get one, it'd be a 1981, 4 wheel discs and little updates to fuel management.

Non-interference engines, big plus.

They only put out as much power as a NA 944 does and aren't even as quick as a totally stock 1983 944. But they don't self distruct.

I had a couple of 924's (NA's) just out of high school. I liked them, but they sure got a bad rep from seemingly everyone. Never had a lick of trouble with either the ones I owned. One was a 1981 with those nice mesh rims, 5-lug of course, normal 5speed shift pattern 4 wheel discs. It was a really nice little car.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[BigDBass]

There's an '88 924S nearby for under $3k that I'm trying to get my wife to let me buy "for her". It's got an automatic trans... It's not working so far!

[Dr Evil]

924s will have the 944 engine that is detuned. Thus, you will have the 944 issues to consider and 944 costs.