ok, so after a few 914 rides a close friend has the bug. he really likes 968 and 944(951) for his budget (under 10k)

I've told him to do as much reading as possible, to study what to look for and ask about, is there anything that you guys can recommend?

reliability issues? major expenses to watch for?

As the former keeper-of-the-944-faq, try here:

http://www.connact.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faq.html

Pretty much covers it.

Dennis
(ex-944S, ex-944 TurboS)

awesome! thanks!

I read the 94 buyers guide on pelican, but felt it was sort of "short and sweet" didn't really lay out the big "gotchas"

I don't know if he'll find a decent 951 for under 10k. Prices might have dropped. The last I looked a real nice one was closer to 15k. I had a mint 924S which is basically a lighter 944 N/A. He can get a 944 N/A all day long for under 10 or a 924S for under 5.

The only Real gotcha is battery tray rust. They rot up and fall into the passengers footwell. Pull the battery and look at it. Leaves collect on the drivers side and rust that up too. Expect the sunroof and rear trunk electronics to have gremlins. There's tech articles out there on how to fix.

He should be able to find something in that range. The key is to try to find one that's not highly "modified". They can be made to put out quite a bit more power, but were most reliable the way they came from the factory.

He should EASILY be able to get a very nice and clean turbo for 10k. I see them ~8k around here. Perfect/show cars go for 15k... Nice drivers w/ a few tasteful mods go for 8-10k.

968's are a bit more unfortunately..

For 10k he should get a low mile, very nicely maintained, clean car.

there is a decent looking 968 on ebay for 8500... cabrio. the prices are fortunately coming down

he's not looking for a show car, he's looking for a driver

My frind that had a mechanical shop has bought and sold 4 turbos in the last 8-12 months, all in the 8-12,000.00 range. All were VERY nice cars. Don't fear the cars, I know all to well how many people talk shit, and spew the info they have READ about them, BUT a 944 with proper maintenance is a great car. A turbo with proper maintenance is a AWESOME car. A turbo with proper maintenance and some upgrades is an INCREDIBLE car. If he has reasonable intellect, and reasonable mechanical skills most anything can be done by the amatuer mech. The only real issue he might want to pay for is the timing belty job. DO NOT do that unless you have the proper tensioning gauge. DO NOT use the "cricket" It may work, but it is NOT going to be correct, and blowing an engine is not worth the risk. The tales of not needing the gauge for a post 87 car is a myth too. Those not knowing anything think the timing belt is the only thing you need the tensioner for. WRONG !! the balance shafts also need to be properly tensioned and they DO NOT have spring loaded tensioners. You need the gauge regardless if you plan to do your own belts. If he looks at a car without proof of mantenance by a REPUTABLE mechanic, tell him to pass, or plan on doing the water pump and belts IMMEDIATELY. A belt failure will cost the valve train and if very lucky will not hit the pistons. Last one I did for a customer had a 2500.00 bill. Wiped out all but 2 valves, didn't touch a piston. I flog mine everytime I drive it, but I also keep a close eye on the maintenance

Turbo's are higher maintenance than their S2 or 968 brethren... but they have more hidden "power potential". If you spend well, you can reliable get 300-350 HP at the wheels.

A nice plain-jane 944 is also a great way to get into Porsches. They're comfortable, handle superbly, and still feel kind of modern.

If he has a little more to spend, he could consider the 914's big brother - the Boxster.

I respectfully disagree. I've been tensioning my own belts by feel for nearly 15 years, and never had a problem. That's like telling someone they can't synch carbs without a syncrometer... But it can be done very well by ear and a hose. It's just quicker with a sophisticated tool.

[quote name='Van' date='Apr 12 2010, 05:36 PM' post='1302348']
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scotty b @ Apr 12 2010, 03:51 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
DO NOT do that unless you have the proper tensioning gauge. DO NOT use the "cricket" It may work, but it is NOT going to be correct, and blowing an engine is not worth the risk. The tales of not needing the gauge for a post 87 car is a myth too. Those not knowing anything think the timing belt is the only thing you need the tensioner for. WRONG !! the balance shafts also need to be properly tensioned and they DO NOT have spring loaded tensioners. You need the gauge regardless if you plan to do your own belts.
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. I've been tensioning my own belts by feel for nearly 15 years, and never had a problem. That's like telling someone they can't synch carbs without a syncrometer... But it can be done very well by ear and a hose. It's just quicker with a sophisticated tool.
[/quote]
I would NEVER do a belt on a 944 without the gauge. Ever. You may be lucky, but anyone buying a 944/951/968 shouldn't count on luck as a factor in their decision to buy. These cars require a level of maintenance unlike any other street Porsche, and that should be factored into any decision. If the buyer isn't a DIY type, he should budget for a belt/pump job every 40K miles and a clutch every 100K. That's 1500 every couple of years, and 2000 every time it needs a clutch. Those are on top of service work. That said, they're great cars to drive.

As for the synchrometer, most carb experienced wrenches can do an adequate job without the tools, but why? Good enough usually isn't, IMO.

The Cap'n

[quote name='Van' date='Apr 12 2010, 04:36 PM' post='1302348']
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scotty b @ Apr 12 2010, 03:51 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
DO NOT do that unless you have the proper tensioning gauge. DO NOT use the "cricket" It may work, but it is NOT going to be correct, and blowing an engine is not worth the risk. The tales of not needing the gauge for a post 87 car is a myth too. Those not knowing anything think the timing belt is the only thing you need the tensioner for. WRONG !! the balance shafts also need to be properly tensioned and they DO NOT have spring loaded tensioners. You need the gauge regardless if you plan to do your own belts.
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. I've been tensioning my own belts by feel for nearly 15 years, and never had a problem. That's like telling someone they can't synch carbs without a syncrometer... But it can be done very well by ear and a hose. It's just quicker with a sophisticated tool.
[/quote]


Sure, and I used to make rocker panels with a bench vise and a hammer, but I got a real brake and they look better, fit better, and take a lot less time. I have also flared brake lines with a hammer and a tapered punch. Did it work? Damn right BUT a flaring tool looks better, is quicker, and is much safer. The right tool for the right job goes a long way

Send him to Barne's & Noble and have him grab the latest issue of Excellence.

we've found some Boxster's in the 12-15 range, but he's known a few people at his work that had bad luck with the early boxsters... and the repair bills were scary... I can't say that I've known anyone with bad luck on boxsters.... I just don't know many people who've had them at all...

Check with your wife's friends...

The belts and water pump are a must if there's no documentation. They are kind of a pain, but they can be done by yourself. I got to the point that I could tension them by ear. They make a very distinct sound if overtightened. I started tight and backed them off until they just stopped whirring. I had a frined I could borrow the tool (the $500 Porsche special tool) from and found that was about where it clicked.

I thought that I had the fire issue dealt with as I changes out all the fuel lines, but it was a weld on the fuel rail that got me. Not the hose.

Great car, I need to get mine up and running again, just no time.

Great, another car to want I want to make MD money so I can afford the shop it would take to adequately take car of a 944. I like them, but lack the resources to care for one.

If you can work on a 914 trans you can certainly do most of the work on a 944. They're just big Audi motors.

Really, they're not that bad, they don't really even rust. The turbo if it's not tweaked will deliver a reliable power for a daily driver that is awesome.

I absolutely love my 944. However, I want a 914 far more.

Anyway.... with that said... I recall reading an interesting article that said a long time ago when the 944 first came out, for a while, they actually EXCEEDED the maintenance costs of SOME 911 models. I can believe it after getting the quotes from a local dealer...

I was quoted $1500 for a timing belt replacement from Carrera Motors here in Bend and nearly crapped my pants at the quote.

I bought the tools and timing belt to do it myself for just a hair under $200. It's a 4 hour job to do (that's no joke) but with some patience, it's quite doable. Only thing to remember is to remember to follow the procedure exactly and check your water pump too (since they are notorious for leaking if not replaced or checked with a new belt, the tension from a new belt can cause them to leak, no joke).

The thing about a 944 is that they are 10x more complex and expensive to work on than the 924. I love my 924 to death, but as a driver's car, I love my 924 more any day of the week more than my 944. However, the 944 makes a fabulous daily driver, has a lot of the simple pleasures that come with the ease of a daily (like power windows, power steering, power mirrors, etc etc) so they are not only fun to drive but have the simplicities to go with it.

Here is a list of what I Look out on the 944 for (I've helped many friends purchase them):

- Clutch master cyl - if original, has a high risk rate of "on it's way out" or "could be going out" or "is going out" if there is any "mystery sticking" on the pedal. Easy to check for, just make sure the pedal goes in and out properly and make sure there is no leaking up around the boot near the clutch pedal. Just crawl on your back (fun as that is) and look up and behind near the clutch pedal. IF you replace a clutch master cyl, do the slave too, do NOT just do one, the extra pressure will wear the other out prematurely and the last thing you want is it going kaput on you.

- Torque tube bearings.... any rattling you hear on hard accel or decel is usually the TT bearings. They rattle and sound like a bunch of buckshot in a can rattling around. Unmistakable sound.

- Crappy wiring jobs - a lot of 944s that i have seen have had some real rigged wiring jobs to fix stuff they couldn't quite figure out. largest is the positive battery terminal, make sure it hasn't been tampered with, if it has, quickest fix to the 3 cables running off of it is to put them into one large connection going back to the cable so there isn't amp loss.

- Clutch issues (since porsche used those rubber clutches... you'll hear a huge CLUNK on decel and bad drivetrain lash) this means the actual rubber is breaking down and is on it's last leg. Unless you really want to do a clutch job, make sure you listen hard and make sure it responds well.

- Hesitation - common on some of them as the AFM wears out, it'll wear grooves in the small plate inside the AFM. You can buy them for about $250 for a refurb'd one, or move the needle inside to get better wear on a new part of the plate inside to fix it. You'll notice it really hard under acceleration. Basically, the AFM operates like a big door, as the door opens up the needle moves down the plate. If grooves are worn in it, you get a weird electric surge and it reads wrong and will go super rich or super lean. So you might get a variation power through the RPM range.

- Check the HATCH! They leak like an SOB! That weather stripping goes out and you get to smell fumes and also get water inside your cabin area (which is the start of all your rust worries)

- As mentioned above already - battery tray. Those drains get plugged and it causes issues. Easy to clean out and check. 924 is way more notorious for rust than the 944, but any of them can rust with enough damage.

- Fuse box - if there was any moisture in the car at all the 924 and 944 are always notorious for having horrific fuse boxes. My 944 wasn't bad, and was really good actually. My 924 was a horror story. Check the fusebox, make sure it looks like it's in good shape.

- Hydraulic lifters - check for a ticking. It's NORMAL for the engine to tick at startup. It should go away within 5 or so minutes by the time the car has gone a bit past the first bar and reaches operating temperature, at which point it should sound like any other car for the most part. If it pursues, and still is clackityclacking then it's likely a lifter. If I recall they're $65ish each. May as well replace them all if one is on it's way out.

- Injectors - check around the base of them where they go into the engine. Make sure it's sealed. The kits are cheap, if there is any seeping what so ever, don't drive it till you've fixed it.

- Fuel lines.... make sure they're in good shape. There are SOME models where the routing was different, and ran up near the exhaust, and if anything happens with it and it starts leaking causes engine fires, not good. I believe it was the 951. Can't remember off the top of my head. Good idea to check them no matter what the model is.

- Timing belt - as mentioned above a must, as the water pump as well. Belts should be tentioned to 27lbs. You can get a "kriket" tool to do that from 944online, they sell a whole kit for a kickass price. Includes all the stuff you need for a belt job. People say they are "not as good as the porsche tool" but I've not yet had an issue with using it, ever. I'd much rather spend $50 on a tool that can do the same thing as an $800 tool if it achieves the same thing and the same result and you can figure out what you're doing. A lot of people will agree and disagree. Honestly, if you're worried about it, have a dealer do it. If you trust your work, do it your own way. I've used the kriket on my car and friend's cars, but you have to check double check and triple check your work. I've heard of guys doing it by hand tensioning it, but there's no way in hell i'd do that. Anyway... make sure the belt is done at the right intervals, DO NOT SKIMP on your belts, PERIOD.

While you're down there may as well do oil seals and all the other maintenance items....
(you should also recheck after 500 miles and retention if you use a kriket or porsche tool to be on the safe side to ensure it's properly done and not stretched a lot... i know it's a PITA, but unless you like replacing valves...)

- Floor pan and brackets - depending on how people decided to get in the car (people who hop in vs get in) and the kind of abuse it's taken, I have seen floor pans slightly bent down and brackets broken over it. (seen it twice, and also on my own). You can use a jack to correct the pan CAREFULLY, and can get new brackets welded in. It's pretty easy to tell if your seat is crooked and awkward and bent to one side as you're driving down the street. Make sure you at least check the brackets, as even if the pan isn't bent, I've seen the brackets cracked and busted. The shearing strength on those 10mm bolts is pretty good, but i'd rather have all 4 and know i have all 4, than 3 or 2.

- Tail lamps - the seal sometimes fails around where the lense is, and water gets in, and causes corrosion inside where the housing is. You end up with electric issues and sometimes working turn signals. Had this happen on my 924 and 944, seen it on other 924 and 944s as well many times. It's not hard to fix, you have to pull the housing where the bulbs attach and dremel all the stuff down and make fresh connections. But it's easy to unscrew the back of the housing off, pull it, and check for yourself, rather than find out later.

- Weird temperatures - Normal NA years have a gauge that looks just like the 924. It goes from left to right. The later models have the updated face that goes down to up. On the early years, the gauge should stay between the 1st and 1/2 bar on normal operation, at lights and on a hot day it'll go up sometimes past it and the fan should kick on and bring it down. If it doesn't kick on the thermo switch in the radiator is going out, something is wrong with the fans, or you have a circulation issue with the radiator. I had a stat go out with a plugged radiator at the same time, as well as issues with hoses, misc leaks and a bunch of rats nest issues crawl up at the same time. Long story short I ended up replacing half the cooling system. Make sure the prior owner didn't use "Radiator stopleak" or as it's commonly know "Ratiator-stop-working..."

- Power steering - make sure it's actually ATF or the correct mineral oil in there and NOT POWER STEERING FLUID. Normal PS fluid will get past the seals on the rack and in parts of the system and start leaking. And let me tell you it is a PITA to get it to stop. If it's older, it IS somewhat normal for the power steering to sound like the wailing death at sub freezing temps. This last winter there were some times we hit -5 and -10F, and my pump sounded like it was having a heart attack. In these cases you can mix some thinner stuff with it. I like ATF in mine (check your manual) but in cases where it was really cold i'd drain the rack and use mineral and ATF to thin it down so the pump didn't work as hard. Most people won't be driving your 944 at those temps... but just in case....

- Driver side splash guard - if cracked/missing/broken can in some rare cases let water through there. Last thing you want is water getting sucked up into the intake.

On that note... check the airbox for cracking. In some cases people get impatient in removing the airbox, crack it trying to take it out, and you get leaks. You can seal it up though, easy to do. But make sure you inspect that, simple to do, has 4 screws if i recall keep it in, pop it off, pull the filter, make sure it's sealed, easy to do.

- Rubber lining for harness. Easy to check as well. Up past the clutch, it's just a big rubber lining that keeps moisture out, make sure it's not cracked. Easiest way is to just pop the hood, pull it out in broad daylight and make sure you don't see any light up through there. Another way for water to make it's way in there.

- Clutch disc material - there is a really good write-up on clarks-garage about how to check the clutch material left by measuring in MM the distance between the maintenance hole and the slave cyl tip. Little cap that comes off.



All simple things that get overlooked on the cars. There's more but this is stuff off the top of my head I can think of... and I'm way too tired to keep typing. But have your buddy look on clarks-garage.com for maintenance procedures so he knows what he's getting into, unless he's got deep pockets to have a stealership do it for him. Most the stuff really isn't that bad, it's just patience and having the right tools for the job, from there, it's not so bad.

It seems damn near impossible to find a good 944 anymore. I've put blood, sweat and tears into mine to get it mechanically in as sound of shape as it is. Such a good car.

I've thoroughly enjoyed every moment it has provided me. Though granted, it's not my 924, and I enjoy my 924 so much more.... it's still a good car. Has a great feel and they are a fun experience.

Tell your friend best of luck with finding a good car.

PS: If he gets more interested in 924s or anything.... I have plenty of advice I can offer there LOL! They're also about 1/2 the cost to maintain over a 924....

Wow, corsepervita, thanks for taking the time to share all that! Very interesting read. There's a 924 with auto trans locally for $2900 that I keep threatening my wife to buy for her. She's not going for it so far...

it has been suggested that a 78-79ish 911 can be had for near the 10k tag, and would be a more reliable,and less maintenance intensive car for weekend street driving... he was also told to budget close to 2k a year for maintenance items if a shop does them... thoughts?

Would you like to share with us just what Audi motor the 944 has? I'm sure it'll be a big surprise ........................

The Cap'n

Lotsa 10K 911SCs out there, but how many of 'em have busted head studs and/or oil leaks at the case seam? Hint: A lot of 'em. Turns your 10K 911 into a 20K 911 real fast ......................

The Cap'n

agreed, but I think it was assumed to find one that the head studs have been updated and replaced properly. we'd have a mechanic check any 944 or 911 before he buys it to avoid this type of thing.

That severely restricts the number of 10K cars from which to choose .........

The Cap'n

true. I've tried to tell him that budget might need to be stretched if he wants to extend to 911s but if the $2000/year(average) maintenance of 944/968s is accurate(he's not well versed in working on cars, not that I am, either, but he moreso) then expanding the budget and waiting for a proper 911 might be smarter in the long haul. so long as the maintenance on a late 70s 911 isn't ALSO in the 20k/ year average.

I owned a 1987 944S for 18 months. I loved that car, but I also spent $2000 in 'normal' maintenance - belts, rollers, water pump, tires, exhaust, heater control fix - and it was going to need a new clutch soon....and the car had all of the maintenance records from day one so it was well taken care of. Unfortunately, there are too many 924/944's out there that didn't get the proper maintenance so buying one without records is risky IMO.

I constantly feel the urge to pickup another 944, but I'm also constantly resisting it too.

For a 944 or the 911?

For a 944 that sound definitely possible, maybe more depending on the condition. You have to factor that a belt job is going to range in a huge bracket between $1k to $2k (i've got some really wacky out there quotes from dealers, most common was $1500ish).

I'd say the most common maintenance items are the belts, I was told every 3 years or 40,000 miles (which to me sounds about fair) but I am not 100% sure on the exact interval. I try and treat it like my Ducati and just do it anyway and do it early since it's not worth risking the engine lol.

If it's in absolutely pristine shape (car has been PI'd and needs nothing) then I'd say $2k is more than enough per year, long as they budget longterm for the BIG maintenance items like belts/water pump, etc.

Mostly it's the misc weird off the wall stuff that'll get ya.

I'd absolutely recommend having the car PI'd by someone who /really/ knows 944 cars if they pull the trigger on one.

If you want a really good idea of what can go crazy on a 944, go check my for sale thread and look at what I've replaced in the past year and a half I've owned my 944. That was for a "fair" and "good" (somewhere inbetween) 944.

I've had.....4-5 944's. Nice cars. The last one owned was for my wife. We bought it, she was driving it.......87' I believe. We had only had the 944 for a couple of weeks. Not much paper work, timing belt had 40k on it so I knew it was a time bomb waiting to explode. But figured we had a few weeks right?

Ordered all parts the day after we bought the car. After about a week, I had all the goodies, the normal stuff including WP, guide blah, blah. Not my first 944 timing belt job by far.

14th or 15th day with 944, I had plans to do the job the coming up weekend. Wife and I are sitting at a stop light. Car dies. I didn't even have to turn it over. I knew what happened. Pushed into gas station, left key in ignition, called up a buddy of mine "Want a 944, key's in it titles in the mail to you. Don't ever call me about it." He knew the issue from my tone, jumped on it, never saw it again.

That was.....4 years ago, haven't looked back since.

Now that is a classic story.

I drove around on pins and needles until I got the belts changed. I was always waiting for something to break.

Dion

My son has been driving around in my 924s since last February without a breakdown other than him overfilling the engine with oil last month, the anxiety worrying about when the call is coming in for the next major breakdown is aging me.
After i originally purchased the car it was something new every week i had to fix on it.
I got a call on Sunday that the car was in an accident in a parking lot, the front got a little banged up and the hood is tweaked but I'm not fixing it i hope it will go away.

I do like the looks of the car and it is a nice car to drive, if i had a real nice one i think i could be happy with it and the maintenance if it was me driving the car, instead of my son.

I really like 944's, just haven't been back to one since the "incodent" as my wife and I like to call it.

Thanks to all the bad influence on this thread, Firstknight13, and Scotty B, I am looking at picking up a 924 turbo, possibly as soon as this weekend. Ray knows of a great candidate for $1500, and a local guy claims to have one for sale, with about 90Kmi, one owner, and newer paint for $2000. I trust the one Ray knows about more, though as the local guy is questionable at times. Gonna fix up the suby and sell it now that I have the bus to drive stuff arrond in.

Wow, I wish I had the time
http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/1667207176.html

Well, the guy called about the one in CT and it sounds like a good enough deal, but it needs a little work. The environmental controls need to be fixed, the speedo doesnt work, it needs tires as it has been sitting for a few years. About 2 years ago it got a new turbo and fuel pumps. It has the 5 lugs with the 928 style wheels (my preference) and that means all wheel disk, IIRC. Still, I really do not need another project.
1980, 130Kmi.

I just checked out the local one and here is what I saw:
- Hole under battery tray (easy fix for me)
- 4 lug cast aluminum wheels
- front disk, rear drum
- Dog leg (914 style) shifter/tranz
- 1980, 92Kmi
- 6-7 out of 10

It looks like this will be a passing obsession. I called Paul at European Import Maintenance center and he was not to positive about the 924 turbo in general

The 931's??? is that them? Are fine cars just like anything else that's older like that.

If I was to get one, it'd be a 1981, 4 wheel discs and little updates to fuel management.

Non-interference engines, big plus.

They only put out as much power as a NA 944 does and aren't even as quick as a totally stock 1983 944. But they don't self distruct.

I had a couple of 924's (NA's) just out of high school. I liked them, but they sure got a bad rep from seemingly everyone. Never had a lick of trouble with either the ones I owned. One was a 1981 with those nice mesh rims, 5-lug of course, normal 5speed shift pattern 4 wheel discs. It was a really nice little car.

There's an '88 924S nearby for under $3k that I'm trying to get my wife to let me buy "for her". It's got an automatic trans... It's not working so far!

924s will have the 944 engine that is detuned. Thus, you will have the 944 issues to consider and 944 costs.

Auto trans in a 924s 944 = 3K for a non running auto S is a steal.....for the seller.

Oh, the 924S is running nicely. I meant my campaign with the wife is not working!

Check here too...

www.968forums.com

Lot's of great info

It looks like the one in CT may still be in consideration. It has some issues, but is perfectly drivable. The issues that I recall ( I will talk to the guy tomorrow) were heater/ac control issues (finding that this is common), speedo/odo no worky (common). I need to see about seat brackets, battery tray rust, etc.

Ok, hijack over. I realize that I have been directly violating forum decorum in posting my stuff in this thread. So, I started another one that is about me Feel free to put your $.02 in there.

dude, I don't mind, your search for a 924/944 lends pertinent information to this thread!

I know, but I wanted to spread out and poll the masses that have not looked at this thread. Your friend will likely not want a 924 turbo as he is considering the more expensive variants.

yea, he's still looking at 944s or 968s...he'd love to get a 968, I told him to bite the bullet and buy a miata if he wants something reliable and cheap

I was just advised to get a Honda CRX

CRX and miata are both good, cheap,reliable, fun cars... the 944/968/924 seems to only hit 2 out of the 4 sometimes 3