Gauging interest for PnP Megasquirt solution, MS anyone? Options

[Jake Raby]

I hope you like providing support and holding people's hands.... Lots of that lies in your future by offering this, and the worst part is people expect way more than they should.

Been there.

[tat2dphreak]

it would have to be plug-and play for the most part, to switch back from carbs.. not just the ECU, a complete "kit"

but compared to used dells, or new empi carbs, $500 for a modern FI setup would be almost a dream for a carb replacement... personally, I think the more refined the kit, the less after-support would be needed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Smitty911]

I don't know about that, Ttat2dphreak.

Jake sells a lot of parts as well as the SDSEFI and I'm sure he get lots of questions.

The SDSEFI is the most user Friendly one I've seen, IMHO.

[BiG bOgGs]

I would love a preconfigured fi system that could replace the stock system. Then having the ability to upgrade the system piece by piece would be awesome. I would be in for the basic system plus the O2 sensor. Having the extra feedback for the fi is what really makes a fi system manage an engine better.

[McMark]

You're talking about a nice looking brain installation, but having already been through the trouble of building a PnP MegaSquirt installation there are a few details that I see. Those little piece parts really start to add up. I can detail all the parts, if you want, but I don't want to seem like I (IMG:style_emoticons/default/post-2-1117899824.gif) on your thread.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

The boards do look nice though.

[Jake Raby]

PNP really doesn't exist...
Too many variables in operating conditions, fuel grade and fuel specifics and even differences in stock engines.

Tuning and fiddling will always be necessary.

[McMark]

True, but hardware that's PnP does exist. That's the common problem with MS. You have to spend a ton of time actually building your conversion (and I'm not even talking about soldering the brain here) then you have to take the time to tune it.

[JamesM]

I'd be intrested, I'd also like the Spark Control.

I've been looking at the SDSEFI and at $1,750 for everything needed.

I already have the ITB from Extrudbody.

If your looking for a IDIOT to do some testing, I think I qualify. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

I'm in SoCal so thats close to sea level.

Running spark control and ITBs would definitely be getting away from the plug n play and stealth aspects of what I am going for. Sure it is doable, but the only thing resembling d-jet at that point is the case I stuff the ECU into. I would say if you are going that route just use a regular MS/mini-ms setup with your own wiring because there is no point in trying to pretend it is stock. I have thought about making a bolt on kit along those lines however it would be $$$ due to the ITB’s and custom wiring harness, and I feel might have less appeal. I imagine fuel maps would be pretty different on a car running ITBs as well. If you want I could make an ECU in the standard mini-ms case using the Ampseal 23 connector and perhaps you could get Jeff Bowlsby or someone to make a custom wiring harness for you. You would be on your own as far as tuning goes though.

I would like find out what the advantages of ITBs on an otherwise stock motor would be though. If anyone has any input on this I would love to hear it. To me it seems like it might be more trouble then it is worth on a street car.

[JamesM]

it would have to be plug-and play for the most part, to switch back from carbs.. not just the ECU, a complete "kit"

but compared to used dells, or new empi carbs, $500 for a modern FI setup would be almost a dream for a carb replacement... personally, I think the more refined the kit, the less after-support would be needed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I was not thinking so much along the lines of switching back from carbs as i was just modernizing the d-jet system on existing cars. I have done one install already on my friends 914 switching back from carbs and you wind up with a lot more to deal with, including possibly pulling your fuel tank to unplug and replace missing fuel return lines, changing back to a high pressure pump, hoping that the used d-jet system you picked up has useable parts and injectors that are not leaking from the body. Plus with carbs there is a much greater chance that engine internals have been changed so any pre made fuel map goes right out the window. Doable yes, but much more involved

That being said though, the d-jet parts required to make this work are usually not that expensive and are relatively easy to come by, so it might be an option for a carb conversion kit. I am not sure I would want to be the one supporting it though.

I totally agree that a more refined kit would need less support, that is why I plan on a lot of testing and development based towards a specific applications. There are WAY to many options available for me to even attempt to support them all. I am just aiming for the most common and useable ones.

[JamesM]

I would love a preconfigured fi system that could replace the stock system. Then having the ability to upgrade the system piece by piece would be awesome. I would be in for the basic system plus the O2 sensor. Having the extra feedback for the fi is what really makes a fi system manage an engine better.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Data logging and closed loop wideband O2 operation with programmable AFR target tables is REALLY REALLY nice to have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JeffBowlsby]

One of your big hurdles will be the harness as with all PEFI. The notion of reusing the original D-Jet FI harnesses is not possible or realistic, they are not wired the same as you would need for the MS or any PEFI and there is the very real issue of EMI shielding that the original harnesses do not have. In addition to being old and frail and brittle and corroded and broken and...

Another fundamental concern about MS is that it is experimental. Its ok for those that like to tinker and control their own destiny, but not a good commodity solution for the masses.

[JamesM]

You're talking about a nice looking brain installation, but having already been through the trouble of building a PnP MegaSquirt installation there are a few details that I see. Those little piece parts really start to add up. I can detail all the parts, if you want, but I don't want to seem like I (IMG:style_emoticons/default/post-2-1117899824.gif) on your thread.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

The boards do look nice though.

I would love to hear your experience with it. Of the couple that I have done the biggest issue I came across was sourcing a d-jet brain that I did not mind destroying. Each one I have done a little different, simplifying and improving my design each time. I would like to see how you approached it.

My first MS install definitely had more little bits and pieces inside the brain, injector resistors similar to the SDS ones, plates to mount things on, extra connectors and such, but by my second install I was able to eliminate most of this. What I am working on now is figuring out the best way to mount this new board as it is a different form factor. I have tried a few things, just trying to decide what I like best.

After my first install I would not have considered something like this, but the more of these I do the more it seems to all come together.

[JamesM]

PNP really doesn't exist...
Too many variables in operating conditions, fuel grade and fuel specifics and even differences in stock engines.

Tuning and fiddling will always be necessary.

I agree, to a point anyways, however d-jet needs tuning and fiddling to run perfect as well. The goal is to make a modern brain that can be swapped with a d-jet one, in the same way that similar part # d-jet brains could be swapped with each other.

Yes, any given motor will need final tweaking to get it perfect, but no more then a d-jet system does and in my opinion it is much easier to tweak on the setup i run.

[JamesM]

True, but hardware that's PnP does exist. That's the common problem with MS. You have to spend a ton of time actually building your conversion (and I'm not even talking about soldering the brain here) then you have to take the time to tune it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
That is the common problem i am trying to solve. My thoughts on it are that if you have a standard set of hardware you are adapting to say an existing 1.7 or 2.0 d-jet system, then you pretty much know what to expect during the install. If you can prepare all the adaptation ahead of time inside the ecu, then the hardware at least is plug and play.

use it with a fuel map setup for for the same spec motor and you are going to be pretty darn close, at least as close as d-jet would be.

...and here is where modern fuel injection wins out in my opinion.

From a close map megasquirt can use a wideband sensor with target AFR tables to put your mixture where ever you want it on the fly, this will handle engine wear and other environmental situations that d-jet can not. Just one of the advantages that i see.

[underthetire]

The biggest PIA that I had with the MS2 install, was getting the new TPS on the old throttle body. It was difficult to get it sealed and orientated the correct way, with the shaft adapter and all. The 1.7 and 2.0 location is different as well, so that would need to be considered.

[904svo]

PNP really doesn't exist...
Too many variables in operating conditions, fuel grade and fuel specifics and even differences in stock engines.

Tuning and fiddling will always be necessary.

I will agree with Jake, I am trying to install MS1 on a 1.7 ltr test engine. Tuning
and fiddling with it all the time I just can't get MS to hold a tune for me the VE
tables and timing tables have to be changed ever time I run the engine.

[JamesM]

One of your big hurdles will be the harness as with all PEFI. The notion of reusing the original D-Jet FI harnesses is not possible or realistic, they are not wired the same as you would need for the MS or any PEFI and there is the very real issue of EMI shielding that the original harnesses do not have. In addition to being old and frail and brittle and corroded and broken and...

Another fundamental concern about MS is that it is experimental. Its ok for those that like to tinker and control their own destiny, but not a good commodity solution for the masses.

I would assume the same thing however i have already done this on multiple cars with no permanent modification to the wiring harnesses. One of my requirements when I built my original system was to not modify in any way the stock wiring harness as I had a really nice R.E.S. wiring harness that I paid to much money for many years ago.

d-jet triggers the injectors on the hot side with a fixed ground, megasquirt is the opposite and uses fixed power while switching the ground. The only problem is that the d-jet injector grounds terminate at the engine case and not at the ECU. The solution I came up with was to just run the ground wires from the 2 injector banks back to the ECU. This is probably the most non-stock aspect of the system but still really simple and does not modify the stock harness. My return wires are hidden under my harness but for someone really worried about a stealth install these could be run in the harness as well. EMI shielding may be an issue in some cars but it is not one I have came across yet and I have not seen any megasquirt installs that address this. I do shield the wire that gets the tach signal from the coil however I have not noticed a difference with or without the shielding on my installs.

I have seen your work though and believe your electrical engineering experience most likely goes WAY beyond mine, so I would appreciate any input on the mater.


As far as MS being experimental, I consider it experimental only due to the fact that you can experiment with it as it is an open project. In many ways I see this as a good thing as it allows for wider development and problem identification. The 2.2 boards have been “experimental” for almost 10 years now, and despite the fact that it was intended to be a DIY system, it was still designed by professionals. Is any other PEFI system on a 914 less experimental?

Even with all the real world megasquirt installs that have been done, as this board is a variation of a 2.2 board it will receive a LOT of testing before I would be comfortable releasing it to anyone.

[JamesM]

PNP really doesn't exist...
Too many variables in operating conditions, fuel grade and fuel specifics and even differences in stock engines.

Tuning and fiddling will always be necessary.

I will agree with Jake, I am trying to install MS1 on a 1.7 ltr test engine. Tuning
and fiddling with it all the time I just can't get MS to hold a tune for me the VE
tables and timing tables have to be changed ever time I run the engine.

That is strange, I have not had that issue with my cars. could you give me more details on your setup?

[underthetire]

PNP really doesn't exist...
Too many variables in operating conditions, fuel grade and fuel specifics and even differences in stock engines.

Tuning and fiddling will always be necessary.

I will agree with Jake, I am trying to install MS1 on a 1.7 ltr test engine. Tuning
and fiddling with it all the time I just can't get MS to hold a tune for me the VE
tables and timing tables have to be changed ever time I run the engine.

That is strange, I have not had that issue with my cars. could you give me more details on your setup?

I had a similar problem at first. Was the Baro set up in my case. Too much change day to day until I narrowed it down. High impedance injectors will also cause this till the transistors fail.

[JamesM]

The biggest PIA that I had with the MS2 install, was getting the new TPS on the old throttle body. It was difficult to get it sealed and orientated the correct way, with the shaft adapter and all. The 1.7 and 2.0 location is different as well, so that would need to be considered.

The TPS i used on my car had the same throttle shaft shape/size, i just used an old djet TPS as an adapter plate to attach it, i will have to find the part#. HOWEVER I think the aftermarket TPS will only be an option with any system i produce in order to keep a more stock appearance and easier install. Accel enrichment will use MAPdot rather then TPSdot.