For my most recent Megasquirt install i went a different route and had some mini-MS boards produced. It did not make a lot of sense to just have one PCB printed so needless to say i have more then a few empty boards laying around. Now i am trying to decide if it is worth my time and money to build these boards out and sell them as a plug n play solution for d-jet cars.

For those who don't know, mini-ms is electronically compatible with megasquirt 2.2 however the components are arranged tighter on the board and it integrates the relay board all on a form factor smaller then the original MS. My first couple of installs i used a standard megasquirt 2.2 with relay board and DB-37 cable but the mini-ms seemed like the better way to go so that is what i am playing with now.

The setup i a running right now looks almost stock, the mini-ms is enclosed completely in a gutted d-jet brain and plugs directly into the d-jet harness. the only difference from stock is a MAP line running to the brain and the 2 injector ground wires being run back as well. You have to look close to tell its not stock, however i have a feeling i could make it even more stealth by hiding the MAP sensor in an old MPS in order to get rid of the vac line to the ECU. I just have not cared enough to cut up an MPS yet.

The great part about this system is it makes troubleshooting way easier and eliminates the need for stock trigger points, MPS. ECU, decell valve, and cold start injector, though they can all be left in place if desired in order to appear stock. It also allows for cool things if you desire like closed loop operation with a wideband O2 sensor, spark control, rev limiters, traction control, and a bunch of other stuff depending on how far you want to take it. It can be tuned around just about anything, so its great if you want to change cams or go bigger on your motor and still look stock.

So is there any interest out there for this sort of thing or should i just dump the empty boards on ebay or something?

Can you post some pictures of the boards?

I'm not in the market but as a fellow electronics guy I'd like to see what they look like.

I will see about posting some pics when i get home...

I had often though about it myself. I'm not in the market, running MS now. But it would be cool for smog cars. Think Bluetooth for the communications. That would make it even nicer.

Im sure there is a market for this....although since I am a complete "idiot" when it comes to FI....the more complete you can make it the better it would sell....Im sure there are quite a few guys that would love a true stock appearing but modern system that could be "really plug and play" so that if you wanted to replace your existing stock system or convert back from carbs you could get the parts in one shot....

I know very little about MS or other aftermarket systems, so, I hope you don't mind a coupla questions.

What can I expect to gain from an MS install? What's going to be involved in the installation/set up? Can a not-technical person do it?

thanks for your help.

Jim

Sounds like it would pay for itself the first time you needed to replace a NLA componant that failed.

Sure.

• Price?
• Instructions for the average DIY'er?
• Support? Not just stock but varying configurations and complexity.

Ill post some pics of what i am playing around with and then get to peoples questions...


none of these pics are by any means a finished product, still experimenting with different ways of mounting/insulating the board. If i do decied to actually sell these as a completed product I want to be sure they are as bullet proof and prettied up as possible.

The d-jet brain i used in the pics was a pretty nasty one, I hate cutting up nice ones. It will be blasted and repainted before the board is installed.

Bare boards front and back


Spares


Completed board during testing -not yet mounted
wiring here is temporary for testing


Compared with an early djet board


Blank board in djet case



My testbeds...

The idea is to make it as simple as possible, basically get it as close as i can to just swapping out the d-jet ecu. I have done a couple standard megasquirt installs into 914's and this has always been an idea in the back of my mind. The standard MS setup always had some short comings and complexities that i was not happy with and would not have been comfortable handing over to your everyday user. Pending a lot more testing, this may solve those problems.

That was another one of my motivating factors to go MS in the first place. I have owned 914s for 12 years now and i always insisted my cars have the original injection. The problem now is that new d-jet parts are not as easy to come by as they were 12 years ago. This system takes the place of the most expensive ones.

Being able to tune around cam and displacement changes is nice too. I have always liked a stock motor, but a motor that passes for stock while pushing out an extra 30 hp is nice too.

The more questions the better, it gives me an idea of where people are at on this.

If you have a perfectly running fuel injected stock motor, I can not say you will gain much at all beyond the geek factor of being able to plug a laptop or palm pilot into a 40 year old car and do some data logging. If you have a good running stock setup and are not looking to tweak anything I say stick with the stock setup.

HOWEVER
Should one of the stock components start acting up this might become an option for you as it takes the place of the majority of d-jet components, while still allowing you to leave them in place to retain a stock look. For people looking to modify their motors while retaining a stock apperance an MS setup offers a lot of advantages.

in my experience with Megasquirt systems some of the bigger "pros" i have encountered:

MUCH easier to diagnose problems - the main reason i first installed one, just plug in your laptop and you can get a sanity check on the whole system

MUCH easier to get a decent tune over the stock system - especally if you use a wideband O2 sensor

It replaces some really expensive and sometimes hard to come by parts.

It allows you to run pretty much any fuel injector you want. - I had a problem with a sticky 2L injector the day before an autox so i swaped them with a set off a 1.7, changed a single variable in the system and was good to go.

It allows tuning for modified engines/cams/exhaust/ whatever

And then there are the options once you have the system installed. They make it less plug and play but they are there if you want them. To many to list here but i will say the biggest gain i got out of my car was locking my advance weights and letting MS handle ignition control. The stock 40 year old dizzy was leaving power on the table for sure.

As far as a non technical person being able to do it, that is what i am aiming for as a stock d-jet replacement. If you wanted to do some of the more advanced things with you would probably want a little more technical ability or someone helping you out. On a technical level, if you can replace parts of your existing d-jet system, you could install this MS setup.

Price, if i decied to sell them is still to be determined and i dont want to quote anything to soon. There are a lot of factors I am still looking into, one of the bigger ones being...the level of support offered.

Support, I would need to do some testing with an average user to get an idea of the level of support that would be needed for most users, this is partly why a price has yet to be determined as i dont know exactly how much time each customer would require. Ideally I am designing the setup to be as easy as possible but until i have a test customer do an install i wont know for sure.

Support for varying configurations, for a stock d-jet replacement there should only be 2 different configurations, 1.7 and 2.0, and the only real difference between the two as far as MS is concerned is the constants and fuel map. this would be setup before being shipped but could be easily changed later. Ideally i would like to build a collection of fuel maps for common engine configs 1911, 2056, different cams etc, to ease installation there, but that might take some time.

Support for various hardware mods/add ons/upgrades. I already have a small list of things i will include documentation/support on that go beyond a basic d-jet replacement. Some of them i even highly recomend, like a wideband 02 sensor... I think everyone should have one of those anyways reguardless of the fuel system they use. Come to think of it I might even add all the connections you need to install an LC-1 right on the ECU to simplify and clean up the installation of one. there will be documentation and support for a few other common mods that i already have. I am undecided if i will personally support ignition control, the system will be set up for it however anyone that wants to do it may be on their own. System complexity goes up real fast when you thow ignition into the mix and thats getting pretty far from plug and play. Also with ignition control there is a much greater chance of someone frying their motor. I do run it on my autox car and i love it but i would rather not have the liability involved with setting it up on someone elses car, especally if i did not personally install it.


First things first though, I have a background working in hardware/software QA for computer peripherals. At this point it is in my nature to try and find everyway a product could fail or a customer could break something. That being said, before i ever sell one of these I want a bit of time to beat the crap out of it. I have ran for years on a standard MS, but as this is a different board layout I really want to put it through it paces. My current plan is to first install the testing design into my autox car and race it this summer. If the hardware survives autocrossing in august in Utah I will consider it good enough to in the 1.7 car i am building for my wife. I figure if it is relaiable in a car for her good chance it will be for everyone else. Then it goes on a road trip to cali for long distance testing and low altitude fuel map work. Once that is done then i will find a test customer and see how it goes.

If i am to have a product go out under my name, it is going to be as bullet proof and idiot proof as i can get it.

Cool stuff but I'm not in the market...I might be looking at a megajolt though.

That's the biggest reason I asked. I'd want to use an an wideband O2 regardless.

I think you're on to something, especially for those guys who still need to pass the "visual" smog inspection. I also think you're going to need to show people that it's viable for them to buy in. Do you have photos and a description of the system installed on your car? I know it will look just like a stock car, but it would help if you could pointing out exactly what needs to be done and what changes. That will help a lot of people visualize what you're offering, and once they understand that I don't think anyone will have issues with having a modern injection system.

I doubt you're going to run into an avalanche of people buying, but it will be a steadily increasing flow. In addition to those with OEM component failures I think everyone with a stock injection system who has rebuilt his motor has asked if he can put more cam or displacement into it, and has always been told no, not with the stock injection. Every one of those folks would be interested, especially if you can keep it at a reasonable price point.

I'm very interested in this. I'd like to do a modern EFI system on a 914 engine.

As far as support goes, I would buy a website domain and get a support forum setup ASAP. I know there are already MS forums out there, but this one you could control and it would hopefully reduce the # of questions asked over and over.

If you buy through godaddy, they have a free forum app that was very easy to setup.

I have thought about aftermarket FI, but I also don't know too much about it.
I will read through this a bit later and ask more Q's if I need to.

I'd be intrested, I'd also like the Spark Control.

I've been looking at the SDSEFI and at $1,750 for everything needed.

I already have the ITB from Extrudbody.

If your looking for a IDIOT to do some testing, I think I qualify.

I'm in SoCal so thats close to sea level.

I hope you like providing support and holding people's hands.... Lots of that lies in your future by offering this, and the worst part is people expect way more than they should.

Been there.

it would have to be plug-and play for the most part, to switch back from carbs.. not just the ECU, a complete "kit"

but compared to used dells, or new empi carbs, $500 for a modern FI setup would be almost a dream for a carb replacement... personally, I think the more refined the kit, the less after-support would be needed

I don't know about that, Ttat2dphreak.

Jake sells a lot of parts as well as the SDSEFI and I'm sure he get lots of questions.

The SDSEFI is the most user Friendly one I've seen, IMHO.

I would love a preconfigured fi system that could replace the stock system. Then having the ability to upgrade the system piece by piece would be awesome. I would be in for the basic system plus the O2 sensor. Having the extra feedback for the fi is what really makes a fi system manage an engine better.

You're talking about a nice looking brain installation, but having already been through the trouble of building a PnP MegaSquirt installation there are a few details that I see. Those little piece parts really start to add up. I can detail all the parts, if you want, but I don't want to seem like I on your thread.



The boards do look nice though.

PNP really doesn't exist...
Too many variables in operating conditions, fuel grade and fuel specifics and even differences in stock engines.

Tuning and fiddling will always be necessary.

True, but hardware that's PnP does exist. That's the common problem with MS. You have to spend a ton of time actually building your conversion (and I'm not even talking about soldering the brain here) then you have to take the time to tune it.

Running spark control and ITBs would definitely be getting away from the plug n play and stealth aspects of what I am going for. Sure it is doable, but the only thing resembling d-jet at that point is the case I stuff the ECU into. I would say if you are going that route just use a regular MS/mini-ms setup with your own wiring because there is no point in trying to pretend it is stock. I have thought about making a bolt on kit along those lines however it would be $$$ due to the ITB’s and custom wiring harness, and I feel might have less appeal. I imagine fuel maps would be pretty different on a car running ITBs as well. If you want I could make an ECU in the standard mini-ms case using the Ampseal 23 connector and perhaps you could get Jeff Bowlsby or someone to make a custom wiring harness for you. You would be on your own as far as tuning goes though.

I would like find out what the advantages of ITBs on an otherwise stock motor would be though. If anyone has any input on this I would love to hear it. To me it seems like it might be more trouble then it is worth on a street car.

I was not thinking so much along the lines of switching back from carbs as i was just modernizing the d-jet system on existing cars. I have done one install already on my friends 914 switching back from carbs and you wind up with a lot more to deal with, including possibly pulling your fuel tank to unplug and replace missing fuel return lines, changing back to a high pressure pump, hoping that the used d-jet system you picked up has useable parts and injectors that are not leaking from the body. Plus with carbs there is a much greater chance that engine internals have been changed so any pre made fuel map goes right out the window. Doable yes, but much more involved

That being said though, the d-jet parts required to make this work are usually not that expensive and are relatively easy to come by, so it might be an option for a carb conversion kit. I am not sure I would want to be the one supporting it though.

I totally agree that a more refined kit would need less support, that is why I plan on a lot of testing and development based towards a specific applications. There are WAY to many options available for me to even attempt to support them all. I am just aiming for the most common and useable ones.

Data logging and closed loop wideband O2 operation with programmable AFR target tables is REALLY REALLY nice to have.

One of your big hurdles will be the harness as with all PEFI. The notion of reusing the original D-Jet FI harnesses is not possible or realistic, they are not wired the same as you would need for the MS or any PEFI and there is the very real issue of EMI shielding that the original harnesses do not have. In addition to being old and frail and brittle and corroded and broken and...

Another fundamental concern about MS is that it is experimental. Its ok for those that like to tinker and control their own destiny, but not a good commodity solution for the masses.

I would love to hear your experience with it. Of the couple that I have done the biggest issue I came across was sourcing a d-jet brain that I did not mind destroying. Each one I have done a little different, simplifying and improving my design each time. I would like to see how you approached it.

My first MS install definitely had more little bits and pieces inside the brain, injector resistors similar to the SDS ones, plates to mount things on, extra connectors and such, but by my second install I was able to eliminate most of this. What I am working on now is figuring out the best way to mount this new board as it is a different form factor. I have tried a few things, just trying to decide what I like best.

After my first install I would not have considered something like this, but the more of these I do the more it seems to all come together.

I agree, to a point anyways, however d-jet needs tuning and fiddling to run perfect as well. The goal is to make a modern brain that can be swapped with a d-jet one, in the same way that similar part # d-jet brains could be swapped with each other.

Yes, any given motor will need final tweaking to get it perfect, but no more then a d-jet system does and in my opinion it is much easier to tweak on the setup i run.

That is the common problem i am trying to solve. My thoughts on it are that if you have a standard set of hardware you are adapting to say an existing 1.7 or 2.0 d-jet system, then you pretty much know what to expect during the install. If you can prepare all the adaptation ahead of time inside the ecu, then the hardware at least is plug and play.

use it with a fuel map setup for for the same spec motor and you are going to be pretty darn close, at least as close as d-jet would be.

...and here is where modern fuel injection wins out in my opinion.

From a close map megasquirt can use a wideband sensor with target AFR tables to put your mixture where ever you want it on the fly, this will handle engine wear and other environmental situations that d-jet can not. Just one of the advantages that i see.

The biggest PIA that I had with the MS2 install, was getting the new TPS on the old throttle body. It was difficult to get it sealed and orientated the correct way, with the shaft adapter and all. The 1.7 and 2.0 location is different as well, so that would need to be considered.

I will agree with Jake, I am trying to install MS1 on a 1.7 ltr test engine. Tuning
and fiddling with it all the time I just can't get MS to hold a tune for me the VE
tables and timing tables have to be changed ever time I run the engine.

I would assume the same thing however i have already done this on multiple cars with no permanent modification to the wiring harnesses. One of my requirements when I built my original system was to not modify in any way the stock wiring harness as I had a really nice R.E.S. wiring harness that I paid to much money for many years ago.

d-jet triggers the injectors on the hot side with a fixed ground, megasquirt is the opposite and uses fixed power while switching the ground. The only problem is that the d-jet injector grounds terminate at the engine case and not at the ECU. The solution I came up with was to just run the ground wires from the 2 injector banks back to the ECU. This is probably the most non-stock aspect of the system but still really simple and does not modify the stock harness. My return wires are hidden under my harness but for someone really worried about a stealth install these could be run in the harness as well. EMI shielding may be an issue in some cars but it is not one I have came across yet and I have not seen any megasquirt installs that address this. I do shield the wire that gets the tach signal from the coil however I have not noticed a difference with or without the shielding on my installs.

I have seen your work though and believe your electrical engineering experience most likely goes WAY beyond mine, so I would appreciate any input on the mater.


As far as MS being experimental, I consider it experimental only due to the fact that you can experiment with it as it is an open project. In many ways I see this as a good thing as it allows for wider development and problem identification. The 2.2 boards have been “experimental” for almost 10 years now, and despite the fact that it was intended to be a DIY system, it was still designed by professionals. Is any other PEFI system on a 914 less experimental?

Even with all the real world megasquirt installs that have been done, as this board is a variation of a 2.2 board it will receive a LOT of testing before I would be comfortable releasing it to anyone.

That is strange, I have not had that issue with my cars. could you give me more details on your setup?

I had a similar problem at first. Was the Baro set up in my case. Too much change day to day until I narrowed it down. High impedance injectors will also cause this till the transistors fail.

The TPS i used on my car had the same throttle shaft shape/size, i just used an old djet TPS as an adapter plate to attach it, i will have to find the part#. HOWEVER I think the aftermarket TPS will only be an option with any system i produce in order to keep a more stock appearance and easier install. Accel enrichment will use MAPdot rather then TPSdot.

That would work, but I think you could get a small GM style or whatever one under the stock TPS cover and just use 3 of the 4 pins on the connector. I find the MS a little more "snappy" using the TPS set up.

What code variant are you running? You should be getting baro correction on startup.

I used a bosch part, I could probably have fit it under the TPS cover but was not to worried about it at the time. This was wired through the stock harness as well. Honestly, the difference i have felt from running accel enrichment and NO enrichment on these cars has been minor. I was not able to tell a difference between TPSdot and MAPdot in terms of feel.

I do however really like having a TPS in the datalogs.

My SDS TPS install

That is very similar to how i set mine up, though i kept the stock d-jet connector on the adaptor plate in order to plug directly into the stock harness. Not exactly the easiest thing to produce. Still exploring options as far as the TPS goes.

2.88, and yes i do, it was just set for too much change. Knocked the amount down and it seems ok now, but don't know for sure. I notice the accel with the TPS, not major at all, but just seems snappier. I run a mix of accel between map and TPS, about 70% tps.

I see I'm still the only one voting in the "cost is no object" category. Let me clarify.

I am assuming this would be a full bolt-on replacement of carbs. With new carbs running, what, $750? it would be worth at least $1,000 maybe $1,500 to have a fully tuneable FI to accomodate my Raby engine. With Jake's alternative FI adding $4k to an already healthy investment I wasn't quite ready to make that leap when I got the engine. Maybe at the required 60,000 mile refreshening in 5 years.

But if a fully functioning, programmable option were available soon . . . I'm already tired of hard starts at 50 degrees and lousy mileage. Unless McMark can work his magic on the carbs

I,m running MS1 extra with wasted spark (VW Coil packs), Honda 900CBR throttle body's, 36-1 tooth wheel , added extra map sensor for barometer correction and O2 sensor.Here a picture of my setup.
Click to view attachment

50 degrees? ouch, that is really not very cold at all to be having issues.

As i said earlier my initial idea was just as a d-jet upgrade and converting back from carbs is a bit more work. It is do able for sure though, and if money is not the issue, getting everything you need for well under 1000 bucks using the d-jet intake parts should not be a problem, just more work.

What size Raby motor are you running? What bolt pattern on your heads? My only concern with higher power motors is that i dont have any data as to how much the stock d-jet intakes can flow, or if it would choke the power of your motor. It is something i would like to find out though. Perhaps Jake has done testing along these lines? I am planning a 2056 at the moment for testing but that is going to be a little ways off.

Another issue you might come across with a Raby motor is the likely hood of Jake supporting this setup being rather low. I may be wrong, but i believe he had a bad experience in the past. I would love to work with him on it to get his support as i see a lot of potential for this type of setup but as he already has an FI setup that he endorses I am not sure what he interest in that would be, again i am guessing probably low.


I would definitely be down to figure something out for you though.

I can speak to what james has elluded to as I had to scrounge all the vintage injection parts, a pain but it's great! It works, and uses the origional harness