Just a notion. Need smart people to iron out details., Co-Op Race Track/Tracks. Options

[Silverstreak]

Had this notion driving round town the other day. I Googled it but couldn't find anything on the idea. The way I figure, most sports car enthusiast would love to have a place to stretch their cars legs and test the boundaries without fearing the law or flying off the road into some trees, a ditch, a house or people for that matter. Sadly, where I live anyway there isn't a road course to be found for some 300 miles. And even then you can't get on it without spending a fortune and being there on the right day. My idea, as nieve as it may seem is a road coarse built by the people (funded anyway) for the people. The people being common Joe Shmoe's like ourselves. The concept is pretty simple. You'd have members chip in an initial amount to get the track constructed, then an annual membership fee to keep it maintained. You could then set up a schedule of sort so the track isn't over crowded on any given day (this is one place you'd smart people would come in). There would of course be rules in ordinance with all safety requirements. I think the best place to try such an endeavor would be out West, say California where there's a large sports car community present. But, I supose it could work in a number of places. Keep in mind, I have no idea how much it cost to build a race track or what kind of red tape you'd have to cut through. Anyway, just a thought. Thought I'd try and get the snowball rolling down hill and see how big it got. Thanks for reading. I'd love to hear any input on the topic.
Happy motoring (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) ,
Josh

[URY914]

Nice idea, but.....

The first investors need to chip a lot at the start. If not the first guys on board will never live long enough to drive on it. You can't ask for money without delivering something pretty quick.

[Silverstreak]

Certainly, it would take a large number of investors/owners to get the project complete. I don't know what that number would be as I don't know the cost for building a basic road coarse. Obviously the more founding members the less cost to each. I supose you'd have to put the feeleres out to varying websites, clubs and organizations to see what kind of interest could be drummed up. Then if you get enough interested members, money can be collected into an escrow account and go on from there.

[ldsgeek]

Last I heard you can figure at least $1,000,000 per mile of paving, after landscaping the contours you want. This is before any facilities are built so the price adds up quick for this kind of thing. There has been one in the planning/financing stages for several years here in New Hampshire and I don't see it going live any time soon.

[ArtechnikA]

Had this notion driving round town the other day.

You need to buy A LOT of land so your neighbors can't complain about the noise.
Since you are selling to amateurs with a lot of money, you need to be capitalized and insured for the first time some diqwad with a big bankroll, a fast car, and a room-temperature IQ stuffs it and dies.

If you think a simple liability release form does this, you need another idea...

Funding the zoning process and environmental impact studies alone would bankrupt most mere mortals...

[bandjoey]

...AND $5k PER RACE FOR INSURANCE. It's a great idea but expensive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Silverstreak]

Last I heard you can figure at least $1,000,000 per mile of paving, after landscaping the contours you want. This is before any facilities are built so the price adds up quick for this kind of thing. There has been one in the planning/financing stages for several years here in New Hampshire and I don't see it going live any time soon.

Yeah, they've been planning one near me in Mobile AL. Ol' Dale Jr. was suposed to be financing the complex with all sorts of tracks. There's a sign that says "Future home of Alabama Motorsports Park". But I guess it's been on hold for a couple years now. Probably cause the guy never wins a race (not that I follow that crap). At a million bucks a mile, it would probably take more investors than you could muster in an area where the track would be in driving distance to them. Unless of course you get some fat cat execs and movie stars on board! But they probably wouldn't be down with the whole Co-Op thing and would want to turn a profit. I wish Bill Gates was a member on this site, he could build a sweet facility without even feeling a bump in his bank account. Oh well, maybe it could work with a rally racing circuit instead, then we wouldn't have to pay for paving, just land clearing and contouring. Hell, you might even get a member who has the equipment to complete such a task. And maybe I'm just dreaming.

[Silverstreak]

As far as the insurance and liability thing goes. I'm no lawyer but technically, anyone driving on the track would be a partial owner( that's how the whole co-op thing would work). So I'm not sure how it would work out suing yourself for crashing on your own track. I'm open to input from any lawyers here, as the biggest hurdle would be all the red tape.

[ArtechnikA]

...I'm not sure how it would work out suing yourself for crashing on your own track. ...

Figure the suit will be a wrongful death and loss of lifetime income filed by 'the estate, heirs, and assigns of...'

Do you think owners of co-op apartments and condos cannot sue the corporation for mismanagement, malfeasance, or hazards resulting in death ?

[Silverstreak]

Well, like I said. I'm no lawyer and I have no idea what the laws are regarding liability on the race track as I've never been on one, but I'd figure the negligence would be on the race car driver as he's in control of said car. Unless maybe there was something definitively wrong with the track. Can you sue the state or federal government if you throw it in the trees at 100mph on a perfectly good road? Believe me, I know people sue other people for just about anything nowadays. How does it work when you go to track days? I assume you sign a waiver of some sort, but I don't know. Enter at your own peril? Again any lawyers can chime in if they know the ins and outs of such a proposal.

[ArtechnikA]

...Can you sue the state or federal government if you throw it in the trees at 100mph on a perfectly good road? Believe me, I know people sue other people for just about anything nowadays. How does it work when you go to track days? I assume you sign a waiver of some sort, but I don't know. Enter at your own peril?

You can sue the federal government only if you ask nicely.
Usually they say no.
(The government is exempt from a lot of laws they hold us 'mere citizens' to...)

100mph isn't legal anywhere. Suppose I go offroad at the legal speed of 80. My heirs and assigns might legitimately claim there should have been a 'guide rail' (it's not a 'guard rail' any more due to prior litigation...).

You do sign a waiver for a track day. They're fundamentally nonenforceable but it does tend to keep the noise level down. You can bet the track and the organizing body have insurance, which is all I said originally - this is fundamentally dangerous and you better have damned good insurance.

[Silverstreak]

I see. I realise it's not legal to do 100mph anywhere. I was implying it would be driver negligence to go flying off a road at that speed. So, any insurance policy would have to be included in the membership dues. A huge group policy I suppose. Thanks for the input btw.

[auerbach]

Lime Rock, Monticello, New Jersey Motorsports Park and Alpine are all member based clubs/tracks. EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE is only the beginning of the problems.

[WordSmith]

Lime Rock, Monticello, New Jersey Motorsports Park and Alpine are all member based clubs/tracks. EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE is only the beginning of the problems.

Out here in the west, Spring Mountain Motorsports Park in Pahrump, Nevada, is a member built/owned track. Membership rates: Corp: $100K + $12K/yr, Charter: $35K + $5K/yr; Seasonal: $17,500 + $2,500/yr. These memberships give you 10-16 days per month on the track. Guests pay $125/day to go on the track with the member. They also rent out to club events, but retain member usage within the events (one run session, join sessions, or whatever works). This is an awkward arrangement...slow formula cars with GT3's. No one is having fun in that run group.

Their capitalization plan and membership rates make it too expensive/exclusive for the average motorsports/sports car enthusiast. They require huge fees to rent and pay for their required track personnel, safety crews, and insurance. Even with "assumption of the risk" language in all documents and waivers, this doesn't preclude someone with a claim for injury or loss of life to file suit and cost the member/owners thousands in legal fees to defend themselves, even if the suit is baseless.

Maybe these are some of the reasons there aren't many of these tracks around.

Better to attend a sanctioned event, DE or club event. Plan a weekend, make the trip and have a great race day. Then drive home and don't give a thought to worrying about how to track property/facilities fair in the weather, next rental weekend to a "moto" club with sketchy membership, etc. Peace of mind.

[bandjoey]

Talk to the local PCA group. They purchase insurance for all the DE's etc, and can probably get some contact info. Heck if it's a PCA event, you use their insurance possibly.

Now about that $1M per mile...

[carr914]

Not a new idea, but not a good one in this economy.

Here is an article from AutoWeek a few years ago talking about Auto Country Clubs - most of them didn't happen.





I really don't think the $1mil per mile is going to kill you ( You wouldn't be building LeMans), but the permitting, insurance, infrastructure, etc.

[Silverstreak]

Is Spring Mountain a for profit facility? The limitations of that place are terrible, especially considering the cost. Though I couldn't really read the Autoweek article, the "Country Club" idea is sort of what I had in mind. And you're right, not looking to build Le Mans or something like that. Just a basic road coarse with basic facilities. But like people have said, the legalities and insurance regs seem to be the real killer. I'll have to see if I can find that article somewhere online, I figured someone must have thought of it already. Thanks for the input everyone.

[Silverstreak]

Oh, and pardon my ignorance but, WTF is a DE? Driving Event?

[ArtechnikA]

Oh, and pardon my ignorance but, WTF is a DE? Driving Event?

"Driver Education" - A much more insurable and structured format than Racing, Time Trial, or just Open Track Day.

There are qualified instructors, a classification of skill level based run groups, and varying degrees of restriction and control placed on the participants in the run groups.

Also, if done right, and the participants can check their egos at the gate, there is the opportunity to actually learn to drive better and more safely. And it is a little more encouraging for people new to high-performance who would never think of "racing" but might like an opportunity to go fast and learn to go fast without it actually being racing.

[Silverstreak]

Oh, and pardon my ignorance but, WTF is a DE? Driving Event?

"Driver Education" - A much more insurable and structured format than Racing, Time Trial, or just Open Track Day.

There are qualified instructors, a classification of skill level based run groups, and varying degrees of restriction and control placed on the participants in the run groups.

Also, if done right, and the participants can check their egos at the gate, there is the opportunity to actually learn to drive better and more safely. And it is a little more encouraging for people new to high-performance who would never think of "racing" but might like an opportunity to go fast and learn to go fast without it actually being racing.

Oh! Thanks. I was considering doing this at Skip Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham Al. It cost something like $1500 for a 1 day course. At least you get to drive Porsches. You can spend alot more money and get some sort of license.