Had this notion driving round town the other day. I Googled it but couldn't find anything on the idea. The way I figure, most sports car enthusiast would love to have a place to stretch their cars legs and test the boundaries without fearing the law or flying off the road into some trees, a ditch, a house or people for that matter. Sadly, where I live anyway there isn't a road course to be found for some 300 miles. And even then you can't get on it without spending a fortune and being there on the right day. My idea, as nieve as it may seem is a road coarse built by the people (funded anyway) for the people. The people being common Joe Shmoe's like ourselves. The concept is pretty simple. You'd have members chip in an initial amount to get the track constructed, then an annual membership fee to keep it maintained. You could then set up a schedule of sort so the track isn't over crowded on any given day (this is one place you'd smart people would come in). There would of course be rules in ordinance with all safety requirements. I think the best place to try such an endeavor would be out West, say California where there's a large sports car community present. But, I supose it could work in a number of places. Keep in mind, I have no idea how much it cost to build a race track or what kind of red tape you'd have to cut through. Anyway, just a thought. Thought I'd try and get the snowball rolling down hill and see how big it got. Thanks for reading. I'd love to hear any input on the topic.
Happy motoring ,
Josh

Nice idea, but.....

The first investors need to chip a lot at the start. If not the first guys on board will never live long enough to drive on it. You can't ask for money without delivering something pretty quick.

Certainly, it would take a large number of investors/owners to get the project complete. I don't know what that number would be as I don't know the cost for building a basic road coarse. Obviously the more founding members the less cost to each. I supose you'd have to put the feeleres out to varying websites, clubs and organizations to see what kind of interest could be drummed up. Then if you get enough interested members, money can be collected into an escrow account and go on from there.

Last I heard you can figure at least $1,000,000 per mile of paving, after landscaping the contours you want. This is before any facilities are built so the price adds up quick for this kind of thing. There has been one in the planning/financing stages for several years here in New Hampshire and I don't see it going live any time soon.

You need to buy A LOT of land so your neighbors can't complain about the noise.
Since you are selling to amateurs with a lot of money, you need to be capitalized and insured for the first time some diqwad with a big bankroll, a fast car, and a room-temperature IQ stuffs it and dies.

If you think a simple liability release form does this, you need another idea...

Funding the zoning process and environmental impact studies alone would bankrupt most mere mortals...

...AND $5k PER RACE FOR INSURANCE. It's a great idea but expensive.

Yeah, they've been planning one near me in Mobile AL. Ol' Dale Jr. was suposed to be financing the complex with all sorts of tracks. There's a sign that says "Future home of Alabama Motorsports Park". But I guess it's been on hold for a couple years now. Probably cause the guy never wins a race (not that I follow that crap). At a million bucks a mile, it would probably take more investors than you could muster in an area where the track would be in driving distance to them. Unless of course you get some fat cat execs and movie stars on board! But they probably wouldn't be down with the whole Co-Op thing and would want to turn a profit. I wish Bill Gates was a member on this site, he could build a sweet facility without even feeling a bump in his bank account. Oh well, maybe it could work with a rally racing circuit instead, then we wouldn't have to pay for paving, just land clearing and contouring. Hell, you might even get a member who has the equipment to complete such a task. And maybe I'm just dreaming.

As far as the insurance and liability thing goes. I'm no lawyer but technically, anyone driving on the track would be a partial owner( that's how the whole co-op thing would work). So I'm not sure how it would work out suing yourself for crashing on your own track. I'm open to input from any lawyers here, as the biggest hurdle would be all the red tape.

Figure the suit will be a wrongful death and loss of lifetime income filed by 'the estate, heirs, and assigns of...'

Do you think owners of co-op apartments and condos cannot sue the corporation for mismanagement, malfeasance, or hazards resulting in death ?

Well, like I said. I'm no lawyer and I have no idea what the laws are regarding liability on the race track as I've never been on one, but I'd figure the negligence would be on the race car driver as he's in control of said car. Unless maybe there was something definitively wrong with the track. Can you sue the state or federal government if you throw it in the trees at 100mph on a perfectly good road? Believe me, I know people sue other people for just about anything nowadays. How does it work when you go to track days? I assume you sign a waiver of some sort, but I don't know. Enter at your own peril? Again any lawyers can chime in if they know the ins and outs of such a proposal.

You can sue the federal government only if you ask nicely.
Usually they say no.
(The government is exempt from a lot of laws they hold us 'mere citizens' to...)

100mph isn't legal anywhere. Suppose I go offroad at the legal speed of 80. My heirs and assigns might legitimately claim there should have been a 'guide rail' (it's not a 'guard rail' any more due to prior litigation...).

You do sign a waiver for a track day. They're fundamentally nonenforceable but it does tend to keep the noise level down. You can bet the track and the organizing body have insurance, which is all I said originally - this is fundamentally dangerous and you better have damned good insurance.

I see. I realise it's not legal to do 100mph anywhere. I was implying it would be driver negligence to go flying off a road at that speed. So, any insurance policy would have to be included in the membership dues. A huge group policy I suppose. Thanks for the input btw.

Lime Rock, Monticello, New Jersey Motorsports Park and Alpine are all member based clubs/tracks. EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE is only the beginning of the problems.

Out here in the west, Spring Mountain Motorsports Park in Pahrump, Nevada, is a member built/owned track. Membership rates: Corp: $100K + $12K/yr, Charter: $35K + $5K/yr; Seasonal: $17,500 + $2,500/yr. These memberships give you 10-16 days per month on the track. Guests pay $125/day to go on the track with the member. They also rent out to club events, but retain member usage within the events (one run session, join sessions, or whatever works). This is an awkward arrangement...slow formula cars with GT3's. No one is having fun in that run group.

Their capitalization plan and membership rates make it too expensive/exclusive for the average motorsports/sports car enthusiast. They require huge fees to rent and pay for their required track personnel, safety crews, and insurance. Even with "assumption of the risk" language in all documents and waivers, this doesn't preclude someone with a claim for injury or loss of life to file suit and cost the member/owners thousands in legal fees to defend themselves, even if the suit is baseless.

Maybe these are some of the reasons there aren't many of these tracks around.

Better to attend a sanctioned event, DE or club event. Plan a weekend, make the trip and have a great race day. Then drive home and don't give a thought to worrying about how to track property/facilities fair in the weather, next rental weekend to a "moto" club with sketchy membership, etc. Peace of mind.

Talk to the local PCA group. They purchase insurance for all the DE's etc, and can probably get some contact info. Heck if it's a PCA event, you use their insurance possibly.

Now about that $1M per mile...

Not a new idea, but not a good one in this economy.

Here is an article from AutoWeek a few years ago talking about Auto Country Clubs - most of them didn't happen.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

I really don't think the $1mil per mile is going to kill you ( You wouldn't be building LeMans), but the permitting, insurance, infrastructure, etc.

Is Spring Mountain a for profit facility? The limitations of that place are terrible, especially considering the cost. Though I couldn't really read the Autoweek article, the "Country Club" idea is sort of what I had in mind. And you're right, not looking to build Le Mans or something like that. Just a basic road coarse with basic facilities. But like people have said, the legalities and insurance regs seem to be the real killer. I'll have to see if I can find that article somewhere online, I figured someone must have thought of it already. Thanks for the input everyone.

Oh, and pardon my ignorance but, WTF is a DE? Driving Event?

"Driver Education" - A much more insurable and structured format than Racing, Time Trial, or just Open Track Day.

There are qualified instructors, a classification of skill level based run groups, and varying degrees of restriction and control placed on the participants in the run groups.

Also, if done right, and the participants can check their egos at the gate, there is the opportunity to actually learn to drive better and more safely. And it is a little more encouraging for people new to high-performance who would never think of "racing" but might like an opportunity to go fast and learn to go fast without it actually being racing.

Oh! Thanks. I was considering doing this at Skip Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham Al. It cost something like $1500 for a 1 day course. At least you get to drive Porsches. You can spend alot more money and get some sort of license.

That's more along the line of 'professional driving school' than just a (weekend, typically...) Driver's Ed event.

One recurring theme here is the guy (invariably...) who says "I've got $1500 (or fill-in-blank amount) to spend on making my car faster - what shocks and swaybars should I buy?"

Everybody wants to -go- fast, not many want to -be- fast.

'Cause if you really wanted to -be- fast, you'd go attend a professional driving school.

Haha, I see what you're saying. I'll have to look into these DE's as I don't have $1500 bucks to spend on stuff for my car, let alone pro driving school. I'll stick to my driving books for now and practice where I can. I have a sweet little abandoned/failed subdivision nearby I can tool around in(It's even got a roundabout). Just gotta watch the curbs, and keep an eye out for the ol' sheriff. Luckily it's in the sticks and pretty secluded. Maybe one day my vision of a driving utopia will come to pass.

Just so you know, Skip Barber has Nothing to do with the Barber track in Birmingham or the Porsche Driving Experience that is held there.



DE's can become addicting & expensive. Addicting in that is a lot of fun on a real race track, fairly safe & fun. Expensive in that you always want to go faster, which equals $$$. Also, while it is open to some debate, I estimate that it costs about a $1,000 to do a DE. Costs are entry fee, car prep, insurance, gas, hotel and food.

First time I heard about this facility the wheels were turning.....then I remembered I live in the people's republik of california and knew that something like that would never be built here.

I might have to move to texas when I retire though just to go racing every day for $15 for every 30 minutes. I have paid way more than that for golf!

MotorsportRanch

Jim

A real race track is a whole bunch different than a go kart track. I decent kart track with assciated space can be built on 10 acres. A race car track needs 200+ so you do the math. Go kart racing, it's less money and faster.

See, something like that would be great. Maybe a little less costly. But considering I don't really have any other hobbies or habits, I could find room in the budgie for that. And as far as the track in Birmingham, is it just named in his honor or something? There are NO respectable karting places inmy neck of the woods I'm afraid. Anyway it's not the same and I'm paying good money every month for a sports car, I want to sport it! No twisties here either. Maybe I should just move.

The Birmingham track is named after the founder. He made his money as a dairy farmer. He has NOTHING to do with Skip Barber.

DE's are not as cost prohibitive as one may think.

Any street car that can pass a good tech inspection and has fresh brake fluid and some tires can attend.

Most clubs even will loan you a helmet if you don't mind wearing a loaner helmet.

Cost of admission varies based on club, but a 2 or 3 day weekend with "certified" instruction could be had for $500 or less.

The "novice" groups don't need much if any modifications. They restrict proper race harnesses to a system that includes race seats, so no need to go there.

If one likes track work and want's to continue on a budget, the first mods to the car would be tires and performance brake pads. After that, it can get expensive or one can enjoy the car they have and no real modifications are mandatory.

The slower (and older) the car, the more the driver actually can learn. Modern electronics can prevent some of the real key lessons of learning how to handle a car at speed.

DE's are good places to learn to drive your car in a controlled environment.



John Flesburg
Certified PCA DE Instructor with 23+ years DE experience

Mmmm, milk. I had heard it was something to do with Barber Milk.

John make some good points about DE's and he and I have the same amount of time into being Instructors for PCA.

Students in older cars can And do learn more than their friends in Brand New Porsches that have multiple computers that take over when a student gets in over his head. I've had students in new cars screw up, the car corrected and they later strut around because they passed so many cars.

If you enjoy DE's, then the slope gets slippery - brakes, tires, suspension etc. The other thing to consider is that at most tracks, a 914 will be one of the slowest cars. If you don't mind getting passed, you're OK. There are some good 914 Tracks (Roebling Road in Savannah, comes to mind), but at a track like Sebring where I'm at a lot, HP is everything.

The other thing is do AutoCrosses. A lot of fun, low cost (here 914's do Very Well) and it will prepare you for the track.

One reaon I want to get this teener on the road. I am currently whipping around in a 350Z. A marvelous car and pretty well track worthy as it sits. It has VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) or something like that, but it can be turned off with the push of a button. Then your stuck with something a little more akin to the older "non aided" sports car. I won't lie though. The VDC has saved my narrow ass on more than one occasion. I'll have to take it easy in the old girl once she's ready to go. All in due time.

The 350Z will be a good track car and depending on your PCA region, you can drive it on DE's.

You mentioned your car has VDC. I'll tell you a little story, in 2006 I bought a brand new special edition Honda S-2000. I had driven earlier model years, but I think 2006 was the 1st year for Stability Control. I'm old school and like to be able to feel the car and throw the rear end around, so I always turned the Stability Control off ( I had to turn it off every time I started the car). Well, one day I forgot to turn it off, was going mucho fast down one of my favorite roads. I intentionally threw it into a 90 degree right hander. The car thought I was in a death slide, so the SC kicked in, violently shifting the car left, shot me over an earthen bump, then Airbourne like the Dukes of Hazzard and I ended up in the middle of a lake.

Moral for me; my right foot is the Best Stability Control and I hate computer controlled cars.

Holy crap! Into a lake!? How terrible. What did you buy with the insurance check? Never had the pleasure of an S2000, but hear great things. As far as autoX, I have been considering doing some rallyX as well as autoX with the 914 when it's ready. There are opprotunities for both here in the sunshine state. All very south and east from my part of FL I'm afraid, as far as the rallyX anyway. Do they have DE's at Sebring? I'd love to drive on such an historic track.

This is a quality organization that provides instruction but has an adult approach to progressing you through the run groups and what you can do in each.

If you look through various Porsche archive sites, you may hear about "TraQuest" - this is what they are now: Chin Motorsports

Insurance paid off the car as it was only 6 months old with 5,000 miles.

I haven't been to the facility near Starke that does the RallyX, supposedly it is a nice facility with a nice motorcycle track.

Yes we do DE's @ Sebring. I have been an Instructor since 1988. We typically do 5 DE's a year, most 2 day events, shared with Goldcoast region out of South Florida. This Fall's dates are Sept 18&19, Nov 13 (invitation only) & 14th. We also have PCA 48 Hours at Sebring Club Race in Febuary ( always over 300 cars). The biggest problem is getting good dates. Sebring is expensive to rent and during the late Fall, Winter & early Spring, the track has activities almost everyday with IndyCars testing, HSR Racing, SCCA Racing, Skip Barber Schools/Racing, track rentals, etc.

There are no DE's at Daytona, but Palm Beach International Raceway (Formerly Moroso) is popular.

More in tune with your original ideas, a few years ago, I was involved with a group that was interested in building a Country Club track east of Sarasota. We had an option on a piece of property, but the permitting process took forever and finally the money and interest waned. The other problem was it was only 45 minutes from Sebring. If you hit a Super Lotto, let me know, as I have track planned in my head about 30 minutes North of Tampa.

Forget the lotto. All those billionares announced that theyr're giving all their money away. We just need to come up with a bogus charity. Maybe somethng like "Save the Teeners" or "A track of their own". I guess my hippy co-op track idea is just a pipe dream. Though I haven't smoked a pipe in years. I'll make my way down to south Florida one of these days and check out the tracks. Thanks for all the info.