72 Engine "knocks" Options

[mikeatrpi]

I found a 72 914 1.7L that the owner is casually selling (he's not listing it in papers; it's parked in the back of a parking lot with a sign in the window). The owner describes the engine as "needing work" and making a "knocking sound." I haven't heard it run myself, but apparently it starts. What could this be, and how much to fix it?

The paint is silver but not shinny, body is straight with a little rust by the driver's rear bumper, and the top leaks. I haven't gone through Pelican's checklist for rust yet. Based on what I've told you, does $2k US sound fair? I'm looking for my first real project car.

Thank you for any advice you can provide!

-Mike

[Bleyseng]

"Knocks" like in a rod knock? I wouldn't pay $2k for a car that needs a engine rebuild. A 72 with how many miles? Even those engines cost $3-6k to rebuild correctly. I have heard of a supplier that carries the domed 90MM pistons finally.

Rust is under the battery tray, top of the long, under the rockers, behind the seats, in the trunks....this is what makes it a good project car, How much rust? It is very expensive and time consuming to fix the rust on the body so that determines the price.

If its not rusty, then determine if its "rod knock" by reving the motor. If it stays in time with the rpms then that probably what it is. Pinging is over advanced timing or bad gas which you should be able to tell under hard acceleration.

Geoff

[ArtechnikA]

everybody is so concerned about the engines...
engines are plentiful.

how is the RUST - especially since the top leaks ?

you can buy 10 (or more) engines for what an extensive rust repair will cost you.

you can replace an engine in an afternoon but extensive rust repair will have the car out of service for (at least) months at a time.

engine failures are unpleasant, but structural failures are dangerous.

$2k sounds a lot for a car with a knock in the motor. you can probably presume everything else (brakes, suspension...) need work too. dull silver paint on a '72 is almost certainly not original, which means you don't really know what kinds of horrors lurk beneath the paint.

'72's came with tailshift transmissions, if that's a factor for you. i've had tailshifters and thought they were just fine, but lots of people treat them like they're leprous or something and immediately feel they must do a sideshift conversion. if you're one of those, add on some more $$ to what it'll take to make the car happy for you ...

[TheCabinetmaker]

Engine knocks could be alot of things. Most likely, a rod bearing, or dropped valve seat. A dropped seat can cause the valve to hit the top of the piston making one hell of a racket. That can also cause a rod bearing to flatten and allow the rod to slap the crank. It will at the very least need the heads redone, or a complete top end rebuild. 1.7 heads are much tougher than the 2.0 heads so my guess is rod bearings

[Joe Bob]

It's worth what YOU think it is....if it's a rod knock and a 1.7....lose the motor and go with a 2.0.....the price of the rebuild or buying a 2.0 will be around the same.

Out in CA, it's worth 1,000 max, IF the interior and rust is not bad.

BTW....just happen to have a complete rebuilt 2056 for sale.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[nebreitling]

are you sure the sound isn't just a maladjusted valve?

[mikeatrpi]

Thanks for the tips so far. I went out earlier and took some pictures of the car- in a day or two I will post them (traveling today). No rust in the floor pan, or under either hood or trunk. Small amount of rust under the battery. Body has small patches of rust in more places than I thought, but it doesn't look too bad.

Anyway I will post the pictures as soon as I can. I greatly appreciate the help. I'll let you know when I hear it run and as I gather more information!

--Mike

[mikeatrpi]

As promised, an update.

First, the car is a 73, not a 72, according to the plate inside the driver's door. I also found out they have a parts car- looks pretty stripped but I think I could get at least the roof from it.

Now, here's a link to the pictures. I'm interested to hear your reactions.

Link

[ArtechnikA]

what's it like at the bulkhead, behind the seats ? under the driver's pedal board ? under the carpets ?

[SirAndy]

it looks OK on the outside, but you should have taken pictures of how it looks UNDER the carpet in the rear trunk and UNDER the spare tire and UNDER the carpet in front and behind the seats and UNDER the battery tray and finally, UNDER the car.

just from looking at the huge amount of surface rust bubbles on the shift-rod and other metal parts (like the engine mount) i suspect more rust in harder to see areas.

take off the rocker covers and use a screw-driver to poke around near the jack-posts.

poke the floor-board behind the seats. do the "crunch" test. if the tar-like sound-insulation on the floor board crunches under your fingers, you found the rust!

at least it looks like the car was originally silver. oh, and it comes with a Hynes manual too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Andy

[TimT]

Where in NY is this car?

Most of NY is "the rust belt" some areas are particularly bad...

Like where I liveI have a brackish canal about 100 feet from my door, a fresh water pond about 500 feet from my door, and the ocean is about 3.5 miles

Like Rich said, look for rust... the engine is an easy fix...

[mikeatrpi]

An update- I got a chance to drive the 914 today... my first ever experience in a Porsche. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) The car started with a jump from a booster box and idled just over 2000 RPM. To me, the "knock" sounded more like a lifter tick (I drive a Mazda 626, which are plauged by a design flaw that causes lifters to tick). Anyway, the exhaust had white vapor in it- fuel (?). It wasn't blue like oil. Also you couldn't feel oil on your hand afterwards.

I stalled it my first run, and the second time we started the car it wouldn't stay running without giving it gas intermittently. I took a lap around the parking lot. Brakes were firm. I took my entire trip in third... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) even started from third gear... I'm an idiot. While I was driving it the cabin filled up with exhaust smoke.

The owner is a busy fellow who owns a business complex where this 914 is parked. The maintenance man at the complex is the one selling the car for the actual owner. I tried to haggle the price a little bit, and the gentleman stated he wouldn't take less than $1,500 for the vehicle. I politely declied and decided to talk it over with you folks. I will try to track down the real owner himself and cut the maintenance middleman.

There is more rust on the body than I first thought- lots of little bubbles under the paint. Around the doors, on the fenders, wheel wells, etc. The hood does not line up with one of the fenders, and one headlight is not flush with the hood. There is rust behind the battery box and some beneath it. There is rust in the bottom of the engine bay right up against the back of the cabin. There is almost no rust inside the trunk (either of them), and absolutely no rust on the floor boards. I couldn't get behind the seats but I tried the "crunch test" and didn't find any rust.

In light of this information, is there anything I have mentioned that can provide clues if the rod or bearing is shot, or if it just needs some valve adjustment? Would any of you feel that $1500 is reasonable / fair knowing what I just discovered? I also happened to find a pair of '82 Datsun 280Z's; between the two of them you could make a great car and a good car. For $1200, it's looking appealing. Say something to dissuade me from the Datsuns!

[SirAndy]

Anyway, the exhaust had white vapor in it- fuel (?).  It wasn't blue like oil.

water ...

in a air-cooled engine, that means condensation. there can be a lot of reasons for this, one would be the car hasn't been driven much and never warmed up and you get water in the oil which turns into white sud.

that also means you need to change the oil before you do ANY kind of serious driving with the car. change the filter too while you're at it.

the "lifter tick" could be that it just needs the valves adjusted.
how does the enigne pull?

exhaust smoke in the cabin means the heat-exchangers are rotted (rusted) away.

rust is definately the biggest concern!

if you feel comfortable with the amount of rust present (and you feel like you can fix it), i would think $1500 for a running 914 is not too bad ...

Andy

[nebreitling]

It doesn't look bad for $1500, but I would still pass on this car. you could put $5k into it pretty easy and still have a car that needs a lot of work. better to buy a $4k Cali car and have it shipped out. seriously, you'd be ahead.

my 02

[r_towle]

In the Northeast, 1500 for a car that starts is cheap...especially if you get a parts car with it..

All the panels not lining up is an easy fix...someone put them on wrong....easy to line up trunks and headlights...

Go for it...datsuns suck, no parts available anymore...

Go for a 914, parts and motors are easy to find.
First off...
Drain the gas tank and dispose of the old gas...
(either 1/10th old gas to 5 gallons of new gas for the mower...or waste disposal.)
Change oil and filter, clean the screen sump out, pull off the breather and clean it ...
New plugs, points and condensor, possibly cap rotor and wires too...
Then tell us about the knock.
Go for it!!!

Rich

[tat2dphreak]

I paid $1500 for a solid, 99% rust free car, the engine and tranny was there, but the engine didn't run good... I wanted a solid body! it's hard to find good rust free cars around here, and I don't have the space to fix rust...
I then, recently, bought a great motor for $2000, shipped... so for $3500, I have a solid car...

that's just me... maybe I made the wrong choice (?)

[TheCabinetmaker]

Mike, I think I agree with rich, but it depends on what you want to do with the car. do you want to go drive and have fun? Or spend three years with one on jack stands. If ya just wanna drive, look at what 1500 will buy elsewhere, and then look at the 914. Buy the thing, do what Rich said, and drive the piss out of it. After that, If you've been bit hard, find a nice rust free tub and spend the time and money on it while you still have fun everyday. It looks a lot nicer than the last two $1800 914's that have been in my shop.

[mikeatrpi]

Thanks guys. I'm looking to do what Rich suggests- drive it. I'm about to graduate college and wanted a project for 6 weeks between school and work. I hoped to get it running and looking decent in that time, and drive it for fun for a while. I don't think I'm ready to do a full restoration, both time wise and financially.

As far as my goals:
Get it running reliably
Circumvent or fix the heat exchanger problem
Brakes and other stuff to get it to pass inspection
(by now, it should be drivable)
Body rust prep and paint (now try to look decent)

I looked a little more into the Datsuns and $1200 for the pair isn't a hot deal- it's average. Plus, the Porsche is just more appealing to me. I have some financial computations for parts to make, and a week until commencement. I will let you know if I buy the car. Thanks again for all the advice and information!

Mike

[DrifterJay]

I dont know....buy it and drive the piss out of it I agree....but look at this though! I like the lack of engine mounts....

[Dave_Darling]

What lack of engine mounts? Looks like a side-shifter's motor mount bar, with the stock solid outer mounts.

--DD