The small block thread, Zach rebuilds a 350 (maybe 383 one day soon) Options

[stewteral]

The cam is still in the block. I have not yet figured out how to remove it. Pretty sure I need to pull the freeze plug at the back of the engine and slide out the cam. But aside from that and a few bits and bobs, the engine is now totally torn down, and I am ready to start cleaning the block.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm6.static.flickr.com-1435-1292897457.1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm6.static.flickr.com-1435-1292897458.2.jpg)

So, what’s next?
Well, obviously, the cam needs to come out. However that works.
Then I am going to pull all the freeze plugs and start cleaning out the galleries. Oil and sludge build up in the galleries and that can hurt the engine over time. CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN.

Also, I am going to do some dressing on the block. Open up some oil drain holes, take off rough edges, and do other things to improve the qualities of the block. Then the block will go to my local machinist. I need to find out what size everything is, and let him run it through the hot tank. I am pretty sure the cylinders were cut to 30 over, and I do not think that they will need to be recut. I do want to see if the crank needs to be standard or over. That will affect bearings and what parts I get. I'll do the hone job when it gets back. Then clean it some more, and paint it.

So thats all I have for today. I'll update the thread as more gets done.
I have to say, it is very tempting to put this into the 914.... Especially if I build the 383.

Zach

Hi Zach,

I hate to be the Buzz-Kill here, but I would like to suggest taking a look at your whole power & drive train as a unit.

From what I've tracked about conversion cars, if you plan to run the STOCK 901 trans, you have to look at about a 350 HP limit (and what ever torque the engine develops as this power level) or things will BREAK!! Next, take a look at the puny CV joints with only 4 bolts! Also, at this power level, you can keep your stock crank and rods.

When I looked at building my conversion, I wanted to go BIG so I built a 500 HP 383, but I also had to cough up $2300 for a 930 trans and lucked into used 911 SC/Turbo half shafts for $80 (they fit the 914 hub bearings) and finished off with 911 wheel flanges.

I've posted a lot of stuff on the Paddock forum on chassis, handling, engine cooling, etc. as it will take some work to get things to operating as an intregal package.

Unless you plan on chasing down a 930 4-spd, or better, a G-50 5-spd (the Pantera 5spd also can be made to work), my recommendation is to build a nice 350, not bother with a 383 and use a low-end cam as a member suggested.

Summit has small-port aluminum heads for something under $900, if that's in your budget. Small ports work great for low-end through mid-range operation along with the mild cam. Not only do aluminum heads look great, but you save 50 lbs off the top of the tall V8. Since the whole design of the chassis was based on a pancake motor, the heavy V8 really messes up the CG, causing much more roll than originally planned. The less tall weight the better.

I hope I haven't spoiled your day, but a mild engine will give you a great running, reliable daily driver that gets decent mileage. My 383 gets only 13 MPG!!!!

Best,
Terry

[messix]

The cam is still in the block. I have not yet figured out how to remove it. Pretty sure I need to pull the freeze plug at the back of the engine and slide out the cam. But aside from that and a few bits and bobs, the engine is now totally torn down, and I am ready to start cleaning the block.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm6.static.flickr.com-1435-1292897457.1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm6.static.flickr.com-1435-1292897458.2.jpg)

So, what’s next?
Well, obviously, the cam needs to come out. However that works.
Then I am going to pull all the freeze plugs and start cleaning out the galleries. Oil and sludge build up in the galleries and that can hurt the engine over time. CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN.

Also, I am going to do some dressing on the block. Open up some oil drain holes, take off rough edges, and do other things to improve the qualities of the block. Then the block will go to my local machinist. I need to find out what size everything is, and let him run it through the hot tank. I am pretty sure the cylinders were cut to 30 over, and I do not think that they will need to be recut. I do want to see if the crank needs to be standard or over. That will affect bearings and what parts I get. I'll do the hone job when it gets back. Then clean it some more, and paint it.

So thats all I have for today. I'll update the thread as more gets done.
I have to say, it is very tempting to put this into the 914.... Especially if I build the 383.

Zach

Hi Zach,

I hate to be the Buzz-Kill here, but I would like to suggest taking a look at your whole power & drive train as a unit.

From what I've tracked about conversion cars, if you plan to run the STOCK 901 trans, you have to look at about a 350 HP limit (and what ever torque the engine develops as this power level) or things will BREAK!! Next, take a look at the puny CV joints with only 4 bolts! Also, at this power level, you can keep your stock crank and rods.

When I looked at building my conversion, I wanted to go BIG so I built a 500 HP 383, but I also had to cough up $2300 for a 930 trans and lucked into used 911 SC/Turbo half shafts for $80 (they fit the 914 hub bearings) and finished off with 911 wheel flanges.

I've posted a lot of stuff on the Paddock forum on chassis, handling, engine cooling, etc. as it will take some work to get things to operating as an intregal package.

Unless you plan on chasing down a 930 4-spd, or better, a G-50 5-spd (the Pantera 5spd also can be made to work), my recommendation is to build a nice 350, not bother with a 383 and use a low-end cam as a member suggested.

Summit has small-port aluminum heads for something under $900, if that's in your budget. Small ports work great for low-end through mid-range operation along with the mild cam. Not only do aluminum heads look great, but you save 50 lbs off the top of the tall V8. Since the whole design of the chassis was based on a pancake motor, the heavy V8 really messes up the CG, causing much more roll than originally planned. The less tall weight the better.

I hope I haven't spoiled your day, but a mild engine will give you a great running, reliable daily driver that gets decent mileage. My 383 gets only 13 MPG!!!!

Best,
Terry

ya kinda missed that he's not putting it into a 914!

the picture of the old army truck is where the mouse will live.

[VaccaRabite]

I have to say I am not to worried about breaking parts from too much power with this.

Its a 5/4 ton truck. D60 front axles, d70 rears. HD transmission. all gear transfer case. Where I have to watch out is revs. The transfer case wants to cruise at around 2800 rpm, and can overheat if driven at high revs for long periods. Was designed for a max speed of 45mph, after all. I can swap out Tcases, though, to an NP205 that is just as strong and can handle the revs easier. I just don't want to unless I need to. Or I can find a Warn overdrive for a t18/t98, and fix the issue that way.

I have been reading Vizards book on 350 budget performance, and he seems to like the Scat 9000 series cranks. So I started looking at things like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-1-90455/

It includes the crank, rods, pistons, rings, bearings, etc. for a 383.

There is a problem either with my current crank or one of my rods. Or the shop that did ,y engine reused a bearing. but the wear pattern for the journal is weird. the engine may need line boring anyhow.

My goal for tomorrow is to get the block clean and prepped for a trip to the machineist.

Does anyone know how much a stripped block weighs? I am guessing it weighs about as much as a dressed 914 motor.

[SirAndy]

I have to say, it is very tempting to put this into the 914.... Especially if I build the 383.

if you plan to run the STOCK 901 trans, you have to look at about a 350 HP limit (and what ever torque the engine develops as this power level) or things will BREAK!!

ya kinda missed that he's not putting it into a 914!

Ya kinda missed that he did say he was tempted ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

But knowing Zach's Jedi like powers when it comes to resisting temptation, it's probably safe to say you are right .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Mike Bellis]

If it's going in a truck, I say go with the 383. Hauling needs torque.

If it's going in a 914, I say de-stroke it. Higher revs!!!

Andrew won't even drive his because it's too torqey. A 302 would be best in a 914. High hp and not too high torque.

[hot_shoe914]

Completely stripped it is easily movable by one person.

[messix]

I have to say I am not to worried about breaking parts from too much power with this.

Its a 5/4 ton truck. D60 front axles, d70 rears. HD transmission. all gear transfer case. Where I have to watch out is revs. The transfer case wants to cruise at around 2800 rpm, and can overheat if driven at high revs for long periods. Was designed for a max speed of 45mph, after all. I can swap out Tcases, though, to an NP205 that is just as strong and can handle the revs easier. I just don't want to unless I need to. Or I can find a Warn overdrive for a t18/t98, and fix the issue that way.

I have been reading Vizards book on 350 budget performance, and he seems to like the Scat 9000 series cranks. So I started looking at things like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-1-90455/

It includes the crank, rods, pistons, rings, bearings, etc. for a 383.

There is a problem either with my current crank or one of my rods. Or the shop that did ,y engine reused a bearing. but the wear pattern for the journal is weird. the engine may need line boring anyhow.

My goal for tomorrow is to get the block clean and prepped for a trip to the machineist.

Does anyone know how much a stripped block weighs? I am guessing it weighs about as much as a dressed 914 motor.

you don't need forged pistons thier noisey compaired to hypers so you can shave a few bucks there.

if you stand the block on end you can put your arms thru the second holes down and lift like that [well thats what i did when i was younger haven't tried as of late].

[messix]

have you looked up the vortec heads?

[VaccaRabite]

have you looked up the vortec heads?

About 30 minutes after I made my post last night I was snoring. They are on my research list, to be sure.

[scotty b]

Definitely worth looking for a set. The thing to not is they do use a different intake and exhaust manifold than the non-vtec heads. No problem since you need to buy all that anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) Plenty iof them around. IIRC all 350's after 1990 have them. Different valves on some but best bet would be a truck or van in a junk yard

[messix]

Definitely worth looking for a set. The thing to not is they do use a different intake and exhaust manifold than the non-vtec heads. No problem since you need to buy all that anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) Plenty iof them around. IIRC all 350's after 1990 have them. Different valves on some but best bet would be a truck or van in a junk yard

1996 was the first year of the vortec heads. i wouldnt buy used, brand new they are cheap!

knock off copies are good look here http://www.jegs.com/p/RHS/RHS-Pro-Torker-S...426753/10002/-1

[VaccaRabite]

Cams.

I have been reading on cam selection.
My block is an 85 - so it means I am going to be using flat tappet cams unless I spend $$$ to retro fit in a roller cam. Given the nature of the work I am going to be asking the engine to do, I do not think the performance is worth it.

However, I am reading lots of folks say that most flat tappet cams won't survive breakin with modern oils, and rollers must be used. is this the case, or is there a brad penn oil that flat tappet dudes in the cast iron kingdom are using?

Zach

[messix]

with proper break in oil and the cam gets a moly greese put on the lobes when you install it. you run the engine for 20 min to break in the cam on first start up. then if you find some oil with moly in it you should be ok for the first 1,000 miles.

[charliew]

After breakin use diesel motor oil it still has all the good stuff as diesels don't use o2 sensors. I hate to say it but you really should start with the ls motor. You are sorta like starting with 914 type technology on you chevy. Old style gaskets and seals and such. You can by a very expensive intake and oil pan gasket that will help. I have several "built" sbcs and the price is the same but the old stuff as in 85 will always leak more oil and be less efficient. I have a ramjet in my 86 blazer. It uses the vortec heads and 1.6 roller rockers and a roller cam. It makes 350hp 400ft lbs stock and has good low end torque. A normal truck newer ls does just about that good for way less money. When I built my 63 j200 gladiator with a 350 sbc in 1980 I used a 4bolt main sbc. I used a high torque cam with a 600 holley and a offenhauser dual port intake. The intake has the ports seperated all the way to the head ports from the carb. This makes great velocity for chamber filling at slow speeds. It would pull in 3rd gear with the stock 4:09 gears at about 1k rpms. With 31.5 12:50 tires, big back then. It has headers and good exhaust. One mistake I made was 10:1 compression though, lots of water injection and slower timing on crummy gas. Newer style heads will help this though.

The biggest problem with vortec heads is the accessories. I had to build all the brackets for the stuff on the front of the motor in the blazer with the ramjet. Or just use a 96 up truck serpentine belt setup. Vortec heads are great though for street performance and the price can't be beat.

I also used a adapter to put the sbc on a t90 tranny in the jeep. That was junk. The input shaft kept ruining the pilot shaft bushing and before I would take it apart to put a new one in (it's a bigger od than the stock chevy one) seems like it's 9/16 od and the chevy is 1/2 so you gotta make a new one. It would always ruin third gear syncro from the shaft moving from the poor front end support, so that meant also repairing the tranny. So then I went to a chevy saginaw passengercar 4 speed to a adapter to the t18 transfer case. Then even with two sealed bearings in the back of the tranny in that adapter the 90w kept migrating and over filling the transfer case. I would have to open the fill plug on the transfer and drain the excess out and put more in the tranny. I even made a inner fender breather for both the tranny and the transfer trying to fix it. When I finally blew the bottom out of the saginaw on the deer lease from low grease, I drug the truck 130 miles home and put a 400 auto and 205 transfer in it and the problems were solved. Now this wasn't just a hunting wagon it saw 80 plus highway speeds and it ran good. With the saginaw tranny it would get rubber in three gears if I tried. I did destroy the rear end carrier once but the original axles are still in it. Also in the j200 it comes with the 258 ohc motor so the radiator is not up to snuff for a high compression 350. My 79 j10 has a 360 in it and jeep used a saberr saw on the radiator support to make room for a bigger radiator and to move it forward. My 63 has had several radiators in it trying to get it to run cool on a 100 degree day with ac on. It now has two 16 inch fans on a 396 camaro radiator and is still marginal. Either use the short water pump or a electric pump and for sure a fan shroud. Keeping the hot air from recirculating through the radiator at slow speeds is a real challenge. Oh yeah I even have the hood lovered to try and get the heat out. On the earlier hoods the inner support unbolts so the hood can be louvered. Then you gotta build a inner shield under the louvers over the motor, to keep water from puddling in the intake when it rains.

If you just want to chug around get a good stock motor and tranny and transfer and leave it alone. You will still need money for the radiator and stuff. If it uses the old slave cylinder type power steering (like the ones on old mustangs and corvettes) you might want to switch over to chevy truck style power steering, it will need a different pitman arm though.

[VaccaRabite]

I am nearly done stripping the block for the machinist. I know, slow right? Well I took a few days off for the holidays, and then took a few days off due to a stomach flu, so this is only really day two.

How do you remove the cam bearings? I am reluctant to tap them with anything as I don't want to scratch the case under the bearings. Is there a special tool or something for this? Or do you just grab a drift and tap them out.

All the freeze plugs are out. That was a sucky job as I knocked the first big one into the water jacket before I got the technique down. Got it out, but there was cursing involved - mostly covered by the music coming out of my garage.

I also ported the oil return at the end of the top of the case. The casting was ugly, so I cleaned them up. I am going to stay flat tappet, not going to go roller for the cam. I don't mind using high zinc oil - its not like this truck will have ANY emissions equipment for the zinc to burn out. If Brad Penn has a break in oil suitable for a 350 (and I bet that they do), I'll use that when I run in the cam.

The engine is off the stand, and ready to be taken to the machinist tomorrow.

Zach

[messix]

the machinist will remove the cam bearings.

it takes a special tool to install/remove them. have him install new cam bearings for you while he's doing the rest of the milling.

[VaccaRabite]

My 383 dreams have been killed.

A sizable stipend that I was promised at work has been rescinded due to "budget cuts." So, now I am going to be pretty much forced to reuse the pistons, crank and rods that I tore down.

I figure that I have gone from around $3K that I could put into this engine to about $1000. I am going to need to go back to the drawing board and see what can be cobbled.

Zach

[messix]

My 383 dreams have been killed.

A sizable stipend that I was promised at work has been rescinded due to "budget cuts." So, now I am going to be pretty much forced to reuse the pistons, crank and rods that I tore down.

I figure that I have gone from around $3K that I could put into this engine to about $1000. I am going to need to go back to the drawing board and see what can be cobbled.

Zach

no big deal!

you can still build a good engine from that stuff.

clean the engine your self, get some bore brushes and brake clean and wire brushes and do the cleaning your self.

borrow some micrometers and check the taper of the cylinder bores. a few .001's won't hurt. get a bearing and ring kit, and if the bores are good just use a "bottle brush" hone [actually a glaze breaker] and put a cross hatch in the cylinders for the rings to seat to.
rent a cam bearing tool to install those.
spend your money on:
-heads, if you can come up with the 850 for the after market vortech heads that is where you will see the best bang for buck. the after market heads can come with both intake and valve cover bolt pattterns.
-cam, call the cam co. and tell them the heads intake and compression and what the engine is going into and they can give you the best cam pick.
-intake, you can find on craigs list and e-bay cheap.
-headers. a set of shorty or mid length can be found e-bay or craigs list.
shop and wait for the deals.

[scotty b]

For what this is going in you really don't need a ton of H.P. you'll never use most of it. That trans and rear are so damn low, and you want tit for puuling anyway. Look up the specs on H1's, Unimog's, Pinzgauer's etc. they are the ultimate 4WD's and they have very little h.p. For what you have and want a 350 with a cam and some flow work will be perfect. Cam intake, headers, exhaust, and a 650 holley will be plenty. Toss in the V-tec's and you'll have all you can ever use. Too much h.p. and you get tire spin, LAST thing you need in a 4wd.


don't go big, go smart