Subaru Engine Track Days & PCA Options

[McMark]

I was talking with a 914 owner about engines and the cost-benefit of a Subaru swap. This person is looking to build a street-legal car that will serve for track duty. But AFAIK, PCA has restrictions on non-Porsche engine participation.

So, since I know most of you all are far more familiar with the regulations and options than I am, I'm looking for information on what sorts of restrictions does PCA place on non-Porsche engine swaps? What other options for track days are available (nationally, but SF Bay Area specifically)? Is building a non-PCA-legal car a shot in the foot? Or is PCA somewhat irrelevant because of availability of other options?

What are your thoughts here? And I'm looking specifically at track days, and not autocrosses, but I'm interested in learning about AX info as well.

[J P Stein]

It depends on the local region.
For DE, ORPCA lets any car run that has wheels (and is safe).
AX also.... but we have a class for NP (non Porsche). With a Subi motor a 914 falls into there.
I'd imagine some regions don't allow NPs due to a limited number of openings.

[brant]

Ditto to what JP said
it depends on the region
you'd have to call the region the customer currently wants to participate in
(or if you have a crystal ball, call the region he might move to in a few years also)

out in colorado its porsche engines
if a DE event doesn't sell out (rare)... they will open up vacant slots to non porsche engined cars in the last 10 or so days before an event.

I'm guessing small regions that need to sell more slots would allow a suby teener
bigger regions that are turning people away probably not.

If the customer was shut out of PCA then it would come down to other sanctioning bodies in the area... I think you guys have a lot of NASA and even some POC Drivers ed events out there....

[Chris Hamilton]

I am autocross co-chair in GGR, the region you are talking about.

I run a Porsche with a VW motor.

There is not currently a rule against it in GGR, but this is going to be a subject of a lot of debate at the upcoming DEC. Please attend and show your support for non-Porsche engines if you don't want it to be disallowed in the future.

[McMark]

Thanks for the tip Chris. Hopefully it'll fit in my schedule.

[DanT]

you have always been able to AX your Porsche chassis with a non-Porsche motor with GGR.
As far as track goes, you can run a 914 with a Subie with GGR, just will not be able to accumulate points for year end awards....you run in the "fun" classification.
We currently have someone that has done a Subie swap into his old track 914, and he is quite welcome to run with us.
We have had Corvettes, BMWs, Miatas, and a few others run with us recently.

As far as what Chris is referring to, a group of us have no problems with any Porsche running with us, no matter the motor. Since GGR is a Porsche club, just as with the Porsche Parade rules, a car running for trophies should be a Porsche based Chassis, motor and tranny.
Otherwise, if you want a trophy for your mantel with a conversion car then you should run with SCCA, UFO, AAS etc....

[Chris Hamilton]

As far as what Chris is referring to, a group of us have no problems with any Porsche running with us, no matter the motor. Since GGR is a Porsche club, just as with the Porsche Parade rules, a car running for trophies should be a Porsche based Chassis, motor and tranny.
Otherwise, if you want a trophy for your mantel with a conversion car then you should run with SCCA, UFO, AAS etc....

Dan, I understand your opinion of what a Porsche is, but I disagree.

I also want to make it clear for this discussion that this is what you want to change the rules to be, not what they currently are.

[DanT]

only your interpretation of our current rules Chris. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
That is why I want it stated in language that is plain and simple...

our current language:
3.0
(g) U.S. Delivered Cars: Cars are defined as U.S. model specification Porsches that were normally delivered to the U.S. public for general road use through the manufacturer's authorized sales outlets.

I maintain that a 912 was not delivered with a type1 motor with a VW serial number on it.

[Heater Guy]

I was talking with a 914 owner about engines and the cost-benefit of a Subaru swap. This person is looking to build a street-legal car that will serve for track duty. But AFAIK, PCA has restrictions on non-Porsche engine participation.

So, since I know most of you all are far more familiar with the regulations and options than I am, I'm looking for information on what sorts of restrictions does PCA place on non-Porsche engine swaps? What other options for track days are available (nationally, but SF Bay Area specifically)? Is building a non-PCA-legal car a shot in the foot? Or is PCA somewhat irrelevant because of availability of other options?

What are your thoughts here? And I'm looking specifically at track days, and not autocrosses, but I'm interested in learning about AX info as well.

The 2.5L Subaru turbo is a good swap to replace the 4 cyl Porsche engine. The Subi is shorter, narrower and weighs only 25 lbs. more than the 4 cyl Porsche. I bought a complete 2007 WRX Turbo with 10,000 miles for $3,300. The adapter from Kennedy engineering adapts the engine to the 901 transaxle. Putting a radiator up front is not too big a job. The bottom line is power and torque for a reasonable cost. I currently have 430 HP and unbelievable torque from that little engine. Later this year I plan to install a larger turbo and larger injectors which will give me an additional 120 HP.
My car is strictly a track car. I run SCCA races in Improved Touring (ITE). I also drive with GGR in DE, but can not run in the PCA races because of the Subie engine. GGR has not had a problem with other cars than Porsche running the DE events. In addition, I drive track days with Hooked on Driving, Trackmasters, Northern California Racing Club, and may run some with NASA in the future.
If you want a state of the art reliable engine, the Subie is the way to go.
Let me know if you have any questions. I will be glad to answer them.

[Randal]

I was talking with a 914 owner about engines and the cost-benefit of a Subaru swap. This person is looking to build a street-legal car that will serve for track duty. But AFAIK, PCA has restrictions on non-Porsche engine participation.

So, since I know most of you all are far more familiar with the regulations and options than I am, I'm looking for information on what sorts of restrictions does PCA place on non-Porsche engine swaps? What other options for track days are available (nationally, but SF Bay Area specifically)? Is building a non-PCA-legal car a shot in the foot? Or is PCA somewhat irrelevant because of availability of other options?

What are your thoughts here? And I'm looking specifically at track days, and not autocrosses, but I'm interested in learning about AX info as well.

The 2.5L Subaru turbo is a good swap to replace the 4 cyl Porsche engine. The Subi is shorter, narrower and weighs only 25 lbs. more than the 4 cyl Porsche. I bought a complete 2007 WRX Turbo with 10,000 miles for $3,300. The adapter from Kennedy engineering adapts the engine to the 901 transaxle. Putting a radiator up front is not too big a job. The bottom line is power and torque for a reasonable cost. I currently have 430 HP and unbelievable torque from that little engine. Later this year I plan to install a larger turbo and larger injectors which will give me an additional 120 HP.
My car is strictly a track car. I run SCCA races in Improved Touring (ITE). I also drive with GGR in DE, but can not run in the PCA races because of the Subie engine. GGR has not had a problem with other cars than Porsche running the DE events. In addition, I drive track days with Hooked on Driving, Trackmasters, Northern California Racing Club, and may run some with NASA in the future.
If you want a state of the art reliable engine, the Subie is the way to go.
Let me know if you have any questions. I will be glad to answer them.

I haven't seen your car run, but it must just tear.

I think you have the record for a 901 transmission handling huge power. I didn't think a 901 would hold up.

[DanT]

hey Ron, did you get your brake issues sorted out?

going to make it down to Buttonwillow the end of the month? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Heater Guy]

hey Ron, did you get your brake issues sorted out?

going to make it down to Buttonwillow the end of the month? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks for asking. I hope the brakes are taken care of. I bought a full set of used Boxter calipers, front and rear caliper adapters from Clint at Rebel Racing, R-4 brake pads from Porterfield, and ordered brake rotors and aluminum hats, for all corners, from Colman Racing in Michigan. I had to increase the diameter of the rotors to 12.25 inches to be able to have room for the hats between the hubs and calipers. The rotors and hats should be here Friday. If everything fits (all my measurements are correct) I plan to sort it out at Sears next Thursday with HoD. I will have to skip Buttonwillow this year as I will be at Laguna for the SCCA race the same week-end as Buttonwillow. See you at the track!

[Heater Guy]

I was talking with a 914 owner about engines and the cost-benefit of a Subaru swap. This person is looking to build a street-legal car that will serve for track duty. But AFAIK, PCA has restrictions on non-Porsche engine participation.

So, since I know most of you all are far more familiar with the regulations and options than I am, I'm looking for information on what sorts of restrictions does PCA place on non-Porsche engine swaps? What other options for track days are available (nationally, but SF Bay Area specifically)? Is building a non-PCA-legal car a shot in the foot? Or is PCA somewhat irrelevant because of availability of other options?

What are your thoughts here? And I'm looking specifically at track days, and not autocrosses, but I'm interested in learning about AX info as well.

The 2.5L Subaru turbo is a good swap to replace the 4 cyl Porsche engine. The Subi is shorter, narrower and weighs only 25 lbs. more than the 4 cyl Porsche. I bought a complete 2007 WRX Turbo with 10,000 miles for $3,300. The adapter from Kennedy engineering adapts the engine to the 901 transaxle. Putting a radiator up front is not too big a job. The bottom line is power and torque for a reasonable cost. I currently have 430 HP and unbelievable torque from that little engine. Later this year I plan to install a larger turbo and larger injectors which will give me an additional 120 HP.
My car is strictly a track car. I run SCCA races in Improved Touring (ITE). I also drive with GGR in DE, but can not run in the PCA races because of the Subie engine. GGR has not had a problem with other cars than Porsche running the DE events. In addition, I drive track days with Hooked on Driving, Trackmasters, Northern California Racing Club, and may run some with NASA in the future.
If you want a state of the art reliable engine, the Subie is the way to go.
Let me know if you have any questions. I will be glad to answer them.

I haven't seen your car run, but it must just tear.

I think you have the record for a 901 transmission handling huge power. I didn't think a 901 would hold up.

John Seidell and I installed a billet center bearing carrier. I installed a pump, oil cooler and oil lines to directly feed oil the ring and pinion and gear sets at two additional points. I believe the way to keep it together is to keep it cool and lubricated. There is an incredible amount of torque from the turbo. I start in 2nd gear and drive the whole Thunderhill in only 4th & 5th never needing any lower gear. Thus far, even with pushing the car pretty hard, the trans temp never gets over 190 degrees.

[brant]

our current language:
3.0
(g) U.S. Delivered Cars: Cars are defined as U.S. model specification Porsches that were normally delivered to the U.S. public for general road use through the manufacturer's authorized sales outlets.

your rules seem to say a porsche is as delivered... ie no suby motors
I'm confused now because your rules don't allow suby-teeners yet you say that its fine... I suppose your just filling slots?

[Chris Hamilton]

our current language:
3.0
(g) U.S. Delivered Cars: Cars are defined as U.S. model specification Porsches that were normally delivered to the U.S. public for general road use through the manufacturer's authorized sales outlets.

your rules seem to say a porsche is as delivered... ie no suby motors
I'm confused now because your rules don't allow suby-teeners yet you say that its fine... I suppose your just filling slots?

Well thats where it gets a bit complicated. If you read it that way, you aren't allowing any modifications.

The rules don't say what that actually means. Where are we going to draw the line? We will have to come up with an answer for next year's rules.

[DanT]

That language is from the classification portion of our rules. If you can't class your car you can't run for points....
It doesn't say you can't run, just not for points or awards, just like if you show up in a Corvette or BMW, you can't be classed in our points system, but you can run "FUN" class.

[grantsfo]

I dont see GGR rules as confusing at all. If you want to run in series for points you must have a Porsche with a Porsche serial number motor.

You are welcome to run events in fun category and not be involved in points.

Perhaps there is enough interest to open an exhibition class where you can run Porsches with bastard power plants? That way 912's with type 1 VW motors, 914's with V8s or Subies could all run together. I'd call it the "misfit toys" group.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.valanduseconstructionlaw.com-433-1305235484.1.jpg)

This post has been edited by grantsfo: May 12 2011, 03:24 PM

[Chris Hamilton]

If you want to run in series for points you must have a Porsche with a Porsche serial number motor.

Yes, but we're running by the GGR rule book. Not Grant's rule book he just made up right now.

The current rulebook doesn't say squat about motors, serial numbers or anything like that.

[Heater Guy]

If you want to run in series for points you must have a Porsche with a Porsche serial number motor.

Yes, but we're running by the GGR rule book. Not Grant's rule book he just made up right now.

The current rulebook doesn't say squat about motors, serial numbers or anything like that.

As a PCA member since 1976, I think is important for the club to identify with the brand. This keeps the club together and attracts active members to participate in club events. I wasn't too upset when my BMW and Ferrari buddies called my 911 a hair dryer especially when my hair dryer could beat them on the track. Keep the Porsche Club Porsche, but don't lose sight of progress. Where did all the 356's go? It is important to know what else is out there.

I like the SCCA rules for ITE- IMPROVED TOURING E:

These are the TOTAL Rules (Directly from the SCCA rule book):

[b]"The only IT rules that apply to ITE are those losted below:
1. Any tub chassis production vehicle running with DOT tires.
2. Preparation rules: International sedans may modify the floor pan/rocker panel sections.
3. Cars must meet or exceed the Showroom Stock or IT safety requirements of the current General Competition Regulations."

That are ALL the rules. It's kind of RUN WHAT YA BRUNG.

[DanT]

If you want to run in series for points you must have a Porsche with a Porsche serial number motor.

Yes, but we're running by the GGR rule book. Not Grant's rule book he just made up right now.

The current rulebook doesn't say squat about motors, serial numbers or anything like that.

Grant just seems to have the interpretation of our current rules as do the majority of PCA GGR members that have weighed in on this subject.


I think the direct quote that I pasted directly from our rule book pretty much sums it up.

"(g) U.S. Delivered Cars: Cars are defined as U.S. model specification Porsches that were normally delivered to the U.S. public for general road use through the manufacturer's authorized sales outlets."
No 914s were delivered to the US with Subie motors and no 912s were delivered with
Type1 serial numbered motors to the US, pretty simple for most of us.

But I guess we will have to make a bit more obvious for some (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)