Boxster motor thoughts, ...again... Options

[seanery]

A boxster motor sounds really interesting. I know there is a bit of work necessary to get this done correctly.
These are the main concerns I'm pondering:

1. Transmission - Does Kennedy or someone else make an adapter that will allow a 901/914 to work?
2. Transmission - If no to 1, what other choices are there?
3. Mods - trailing arms need to be moved? or trimmed?
4. Exhaust- custom made?

thanks for pondering, too.

-sean

[Howard]

Sean, understand I'm having a wierd day, but let's find a 914 tub with good body panels and a rolled Boxster. Graft the 914 panels onto the sawzalled Boxster! We can add some rust for authenticity. Waiter, bring me another (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

Definitely want to get a pre-2000 motor if you want to avoid the hassle of adapting E-gas. Getting OBD II happy should be interesting, and is way outta my league. But I suppose it's possible and someone here would know how.

If 201-hp isn't enough, you could always add a supercharger later, but maybe a 3.4-liter 1999 (also pre E-gas) Carrera motor with 296 hp would be an even better option while you're at it...

It should be said that the new cars have LARGE twin radiators, so cooling with a 914 might be tricky, though you'd have it in a better place (if center-mounted) and the V8 guys seem to make it work. Also, no oil tank to worry about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Doubtful that someone is doing an adaptor plate, but I've heard there's a guy on the East Coast/NJ area who's running a 3.2 liter air-cooled motor with a Boxster S six-speed transmission... will try to track down more info on that...

All that said, the torque curve (pretty peaky) of the basic and plentiful 2.5 986 motor would be a great match for a non-flared 914. While unique, I expect this would be an expensive trip down Discovery Lane.

pete

pete

[Scott Carlberg]

There is a guy in NJ, Scott, that has the Red & White 914 racecar that was in European Car magazine 1/2 a year ago.

Part of the email he sent to me about his Audi 1.8t - powered 914:

>
I used a 5-speed front wheel-drive tranny out of a 96 A6. It will bolt to the 1.8T. It is noted as an 012, however the older ones, which this is, have smaller bearings on the diff., so the Quaiffe won't slip in. The newer ones it will. A plus side to this A6 version is that it has tripods instead of CV's. You could weld the tripods to the 914 axles eliminating the need for custom axles. I use the stock 914 outer CV's with success. I just replace them once a year. I would replace the 5-spd with the Boxster 6-spd if I had the funds.
I THINK it will bolt up to the 1.8T.
I also think the 944 rear end might also (random thought passing through). The Boxster shift linkage & cables bolt directly to the Audi tranny/corporate sharing. That was difficult info to come by as the Porsche people don't know what the Audi people are doing and visa versa. <


I know, Seanery is asking about the Boxster engine, but he also asked about the Boxster transmission, and I knew NJ-Scott had mentioned something about that in the email to me.

Hope this info is somewhat useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

[anthony]

Brad has posted about this before. I think his conclusion was that the rear suspension pickup points would have to be relocated.

[Steve]

Have you guys seen all the negative press about 986&996 motors?
Since these motors are wet sumped they are having oil starvation problems on the track.
Porsche still advertises these cars as dry sumped with an internal oil tank.
In the old days Porsche advertised that you could buy a car and take it straight to the track.
Now they are saying if you blow your motor on the track they will not cover it under the warranty.
You might also notice that new factory 911 race cars are using a 964 case with water cooled heads.
This case is used in 964 and 993 air cooled 911's.

If its just a street car you won't have any problems.
But I wouldn't use a boxster or 996 motor on the track.
There's also a write up on this in the latest edition of Excellence.

Steve

[machina]

Its true that the 996/986 motors are not in the same class as the original air cooled motors, but they are damn good. There are countless 996/986 running around tracks all over the world with no problems at all.

Porsched Motorsport did come out with a motor kit for 996 the was basically a modified valve cover that returned extra oil to the sump better.

Also, early motors had problems with sleeves shifting and out of round specs on some oil seal surfaces that caused leaks but must of that has been addressed since mid 1998.

I have driven many of these cars and the motors are sweet. Just think about it, a multi-valve water cooled flat 6. You could only find that in a 962 a few years back.

Every motor has its problems. Just have to know how to handle them. Like Jake with the TIV's, you just have to know what you are doing. Also, these water cooled motors are still newborns compared to the aircooled motors. In 20 years, we will be lamenting that they don't build 'em like the old 996 any more...

dr

[anthony]

The Boxster motor swap would only make sense if you could install the motor and the tranny as a unit.

[seanery]

there becomes the problem...the motors seem to be plentiful and relatively inexpensive. The transmission, on the other hand, is hard to find and pricey.

[anthony]

I wonder why that is. I assume all the motors come out of wrecked cars. They should all trannies too, right?

[ArtechnikA]

I wonder why that is. I assume all the motors come out of wrecked cars.

i would assume it's from Boxster owners pulling old little engines to replace them with newer, bigger, better ones ...

the issue is not so much with 986/996 engines and track use. it is with track tires - especially guys who go run slicks.

you can run a Boxster or 996 as delivered on the track with no problem. when you start deviating from the as-delivered specs - by increasing the lateral g's beyond what the original scavenge system was designed for - there can be issues. not for nothing is Porsche adamant that you use only their approved tires on the car...

[Mueller]

A local 914 guy picked up an early motor and transmission for $3500, everything included.

Currently the car, motor and transmission are in a shop in the Bay Area getting put together, they wanted to use the factory FI, so the struggling point was the ECU and it's lockouts for anti-theft. Supposedly a new ECU was found in Germany which bypasses this. ($1000)

[ArtechnikA]

the struggling point was the ECU and it's lockouts for anti-theft. ...

the engine ECU check its VIN against the instrument cluster VIN; if you're parting a car, get those two ECU's together ...

[Steve]

Check out the latest issue of Excellence.
If you install the oil scavenge baffle it voids the warranty.
The GT-2 and GT-3 are both running a 964 case with water cooled heads.
They are not running the 986/996 case or engine.
All factory six race cars including the 962 are running a dry sump engine.
My only advice is to learn from someone elses mistakes.
Find someone who has already done it so you know what your up against.
Especially when it comes to money and time.
I am very happy with my stock air cooled Euro 3.2 six with DME.
It was very simple and straight forward to install with no hassles.
I have over 230 reliable hp.
With the weight of the 914 and the 901 gearing I can blow away pretty much any new non turbo 911 or boxster to 140 mph.
The only issue I have right now is I need to upgrade the front brakes from my current 911S alloy calipers to Brembos.
I also have a 993 cabriolet.
Its brakes are awesome and its not nearly as fast as my 914.

Steve

[ArtechnikA]

If you install the oil scavenge baffle it voids the warranty.

The GT-2 and GT-3 are both running a 964 case with water cooled heads.

got it. read it.

the sump baffle is not necessary for the street tires approved for the car.
you want to go racing on race tires, that's a different story.

all those other cars have different spec tires and are capable of generating higher lateral g forces. they have an oiling system commensurate with their intended use and performance.

you put a 986/996 engine in a 914, you're way past worrying about warranty issues ...

[Steve]

I agree and for the street you would end up with a newer engine with newer wiring, injection etc.
And since its porsche you won't have as many issues with porsche club events.
I know there's pro's and cons.
With the water cooled engines you will need to install a radiator up front.
With the air cooled engines you will need an oil tank and maybe a front oil cooler depending on the engine.
I love the 914 but hassle wise you can pick up a boxster for less than 20k and when the motor dies just put in a bigger 996 engine???
Lots of pro's and con's.
My 993 cabriolet top is screwed up and its going to cost me $1600.00 to fix it.
My 914 top is 30 years old and is no big deal to take off and throw in the trunk.
I wish Porsche would build another 914 like car.
The closest thing they have is the GT1 and I don't have an extra $450k to spend right now....

Steve

[Scott Carlberg]

Not to go too far away from this threads subject, but I have a couple of questions for you STEVE....

I have over 230 reliable hp.

How reliable is the 911 motor? While I've always wanted a 911 for Mon-Fri, I've also always heard that 911s are VERY expensive to maintain. So, is the 911 engine in your 914 really reliable?

and...

The closest thing they have is the GT1 and I don't have an extra $450k to spend right now....

When will you then? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

How reliable is the 911 motor? While I've always wanted a 911 for Mon-Fri, I've also always heard that 911s are VERY expensive to maintain. So, is the 911 engine in your 914 really reliable?

i'm not Steve but i do own 3 911-powered Porsche vehicles (2 914.6 and a 911...)

stock 911's have a reputation for being bulletproof. 2,7's - especially CA cars - had a hard time for a variety of reasons and are typically less desirable unless you have a really good reason for wanting one. anything in the 3,0 911SC through 964 range (i.e. - the engines typically considered desirable for /6 conversions and in the used 911's usually considered for purchase nowadays...) are darned near indestructable.

maintenance - you're buying 9-15 qt oil instead of 4. the air and oil filters are a little more expensive. you're buying 6 spark plugs and (when the time comes) wires. the rotor and cap are a little more. valve adjustment gaskets are $22 the set of 4.

if you just drop them off at the dealer (assuming you can find a dealer interested in touching an aircooled car any more ...) with a blank check and say "fix whatever needs it" it'll be expensive ... if you can do most of your work yourself they can be quite reasonable...

they are expensive to rebuild when they need it - the good news is that they can go a long while between rebuilds. but expect a rebuild to set you back no less than $7500 before you start adding in the options and ALA's... (which sounds a lot, and it is, but go price a Jake T-IV before deciding it's outrageous...)

[anthony]

if you just drop them off at the dealer (assuming you can find a dealer interested in touching an aircooled car any more ...) with a blank check and say "fix whatever needs it" it'll be expensive ...

If you drop your 4 banger off at a $125/hr. Bay Area shop it will be expensive too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Just like with a 914, if you can do the maintenance yourself you'll save a ton.

Figure that if a 914 costs $500-$1000/year to maintain over the long run a 911 will cost $1000-1500 over the long run. By long run I mean some years you change the oil but down the road you pop for a top end or full rebuild.

To add to what Rich said, every 911 motor seems to have it's achilles heel except maybe the early 2L to 2.4L motors. Generally they are bulletproof and the bottom ends easily go 200K+ miles. The top ends though usually needs a $3-4K freshening up between 80-120K miles. The reason the 911 is still extremely successful in endurance racing is because the dry sump motors rarely break.

The 2.7L was know for the studs pulling through the magnesium case. The later CA 2.7s were worse because of the reactor manifolds. The 3.0L SC motor seems to be the most bulletproof. Their achilles heel is broken head studs. The 3.2L are also pretty bomb-proof but prematurely worn valve guides are common on a small percentage of those motors. I'm not sure about the 3.6L motors but prematurely worn valve guides and carbon build up is causing a lot of 96+ ODBII 993s to fail smog even though the cars run fine.

Besides conversion costs, the problem I see for a 914 owner putting a 911 engine in their car is that most likely we are getting used engines in the 60-120K mile range. One of these "low mileage" 3.2s goes for $7K. If you aren't lucky and get a dud you could be faced with another $3-8K to rebuild the engine. A worst case scenario conversion could cost $20K. It makes a brand new engine from Jake look reasonable. :-)

[seanery]

most likely we are getting used engines in the 60-120K mile range

this is one of the reasons why a water cooled porsche motor interests me. A lot of these are wrecked, or they are upgraded, so most are probably under 70k, hopefully way under.