Suspension Advice Needed, Front bars, shocks and rear springs. Options

[jmill]

Building a Street/Track car, think more track than street. The car is flared with 16x7's and 16x8's. Building a 2.4 6 with 2.2S p/c's and 911 front suspension. I need some advice on front torsion bar size, rear springs, inserts/shocks, and sway bar size. Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

And what do you guys think about these?

[J P Stein]

Building a Street/Track car, think more track than street. The car is flared with 16x7's and 16x8's. Building a 2.4 6 with 2.2S p/c's and 911 front suspension. I need some advice on front torsion bar size, rear springs, inserts/shocks, and sway bar size. Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

And what do you guys think about these?

There are a buch of "stages" I went through.

Stock T bars & 140lb rear springs thru 21mm T bars with 300lb rear springs & lightening the car from around 2200 to 1700 lbs....it took years.

Through it all Bilstein shocks (the cat's ass IMO)....revalving upgrade in their later life.

The trick is setting the front to rear spring rates balanced to one another, throwing in a front AR bar to the mix so it can be adjusted either softer or stiffer ....I started with a 19 mm and ended up with a 22mm (effective....hollow 25mm) Tarett AR bar.

How far do you want to go?

BTW, I like the Rebel bushings but have never used them. I did needle bearings.

[Downunderman]

The very first thing to decide is whether you are going to run an LSD because that will have the biggest influence on your set up. Otherwise, what JP says. I'm running 23mm front, 300lbs rear, 20mm front bar and 16mm rear bar, yellow Koni adjustables but with a ZF.

If you are not going to run an LSD, then you would have to run softer in the rear, probably down about 225lbs and maybe no rear bar. The downside is that it would tend to understeer a bit on turn in and pick up an inside front on exit, but with that much rubber it wouldn't be too bad.

Cheers,

[jjackson]

The very first thing to decide is whether you are going to run an LSD because that will have the biggest influence on your set up. Otherwise, what JP says. I'm running 23mm front, 300lbs rear, 20mm front bar and 16mm rear bar, yellow Koni adjustables but with a ZF.

If you are not going to run an LSD, then you would have to run softer in the rear, probably down about 225lbs and maybe no rear bar. The downside is that it would tend to understeer a bit on turn in and pick up an inside front on exit, but with that much rubber it wouldn't be too bad.

Cheers,

Good balanced -well driven cars- are always fast-Fortunately this can be achieved with our cars with a small budget or It can be upgraded to an incredible level.We have a large amount of proven performance parts available.It seems that most of this forum is busy justitfying there paticular level of setup.How hard and at what level do you plan to compete?JJackson

[jmill]

Thanks for the input guys.

I want to go as far as I can and still be streetable.

I plan on installing a torque sensing or LSD in my 901. Haven't decided which one yet. From what I hear the torque sensing is better suited for AX. Is this true?

So if I go with 300# rear springs I'm looking at 21 to 23 T bars and 22 to 20 sway bar up front.

JP are you running a rear bar like Downunderman?

What type of valving you running on your shocks?

[J P Stein]

Thanks for the input guys.

I want to go as far as I can and still be streetable.

I plan on installing a torque sensing or LSD in my 901. Haven't decided which one yet. From what I hear the torque sensing is better suited for AX. Is this true?

So if I go with 300# rear springs I'm looking at 21 to 23 T bars and 22 to 20 sway bar up front.

JP are you running a rear bar like Downunderman?

What type of valving you running on your shocks?

The TB diff is the way to go for AX, IMO. The clutch type has the tendency to cause our light frontends (and most other cars) to push......a no no at AX. I ran no rear AR bar as I was running a TB diff. They don't work with one rear wheel off the ground......but ask Randal how his new TB diff worked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) That is not to say that this could not be overcome but I never tried one. I've long since lost the valving specs off the shocks......but the rebound is very soft....no pumpng down here. Call Bilstein West & ask them what they recommend.....the cost was 65 bucks per shock + any parts needed.

As it was set up, the suspension was streetable....but not for long distance stuff.
The suspension was compliant ......due to the shock valving & needle bearings, me thinks. The AX venue whare we spent the majority of our time is rough as about any road you would come across. The 300 lb rear springs were an experiment.....275s were the final choice as they kept both rear wheels planted( pre TBD days)....250s didn't.

[jmill]

Tried calling Clint from Rebel Racing and his machine is full. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

Any other suggestions on places to call to talk about matched shocks and springs?

[jjackson]

Tried calling Clint from Rebel Racing and his machine is full. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

Any other suggestions on places to call to talk about matched shocks and springs?

Bilstein -Budget(Reasonable budget-Nice upgrade)VALVED
Ground Control-Next Step (Koni bodies)
Smart Racing -Next upgrade (Fox)
JRZ-Fordahl
Motons-?

Personally don't recommend yellow Koni adjustables-Shock dyno shows poor quality entry level shock-Ran for years-revalved several times

This is just my opinion.Last time I talked shocks and springs-decided it was better to just shut up.JJackson

[jmill]

Alright, bought a boat load of stuff from PMB and Rebel Racing. I went with Bilstein Sports and 225# rear springs. I need to get some 22 mm TBs up front. I also went with the Rebel front bushings pictured in my first post. IMHO bushings are better suited for the application. Clint says they have a similar rear kit coming out in a month or so. I'll wait for that for the rears.

What's a good cheap source for 911 TBs?

[jjackson]

Alright, bought a boat load of stuff from PMB and Rebel Racing. I went with Bilstein Sports and 225# rear springs. I need to get some 22 mm TBs up front. I also went with the Rebel front bushings pictured in my first post. IMHO bushings are better suited for the application. Clint says they have a similar rear kit coming out in a month or so. I'll wait for that for the rears.

What's a good cheap source for 911 TBs?

Don't know of cheap source other than used.Shopping will be easy.Sounds like you're getting ready to have some fun!!! Congrats on the performance upgrades-Now your challenge willl be to get it all balanced and working properly.Seat time and adjustments are comin. Good Luck. JJackson

[grantsfo]

Tried calling Clint from Rebel Racing and his machine is full. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

Any other suggestions on places to call to talk about matched shocks and springs?

Bilstein -Budget(Reasonable budget-Nice upgrade)VALVED
Ground Control-Next Step (Koni bodies)
Smart Racing -Next upgrade (Fox)
JRZ-Fordahl
Motons-?

Personally don't recommend yellow Koni adjustables-Shock dyno shows poor quality entry level shock-Ran for years-revalved several times

This is just my opinion.Last time I talked shocks and springs-decided it was better to just shut up.JJackson

I agree with your shock ratings. If I had held onto my 914 longer it would have had JRZ's. Its the one place where I think too many 914 guys cut corners. I have JRz's on my Z and they are the best shock I have driven on period. FYI Moton was bought by AST.

Curious what kind of LSD do you use in your car?

[jjackson]

Tried calling Clint from Rebel Racing and his machine is full. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

Any other suggestions on places to call to talk about matched shocks and springs?

Bilstein -Budget(Reasonable budget-Nice upgrade)VALVED
Ground Control-Next Step (Koni bodies)
Smart Racing -Next upgrade (Fox)
JRZ-Fordahl
Motons-?

Personally don't recommend yellow Koni adjustables-Shock dyno shows poor quality entry level shock-Ran for years-revalved several times

This is just my opinion.Last time I talked shocks and springs-decided it was better to just shut up.JJackson

I agree with your shock ratings. If I had held onto my 914 longer it would have had JRZ's. Its the one place where I think too many 914 guys cut corners. I have JRz's on my Z and they are the best shock I have driven on period. FYI Moton was bought by AST.

Curious what kind of LSD do you use in your car?

Guard TB.Went with JRZ's because of the testing Fordahl had done on the Gullick 3 ways.Had him valve them. (or tell JRZ the combo) ,either way, check went to Greg.JJackson

[Randal]

Tried calling Clint from Rebel Racing and his machine is full. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

Any other suggestions on places to call to talk about matched shocks and springs?

Bilstein -Budget(Reasonable budget-Nice upgrade)VALVED
Ground Control-Next Step (Koni bodies)
Smart Racing -Next upgrade (Fox)
JRZ-Fordahl
Motons-?

Personally don't recommend yellow Koni adjustables-Shock dyno shows poor quality entry level shock-Ran for years-revalved several times

This is just my opinion.Last time I talked shocks and springs-decided it was better to just shut up.JJackson

I agree with your shock ratings. If I had held onto my 914 longer it would have had JRZ's. Its the one place where I think too many 914 guys cut corners. I have JRz's on my Z and they are the best shock I have driven on period. FYI Moton was bought by AST.

Curious what kind of LSD do you use in your car?

Guard TB.Went with JRZ's because of the testing Fordahl had done on the Gullick 3 ways.Had him valve them. (or tell JRZ the combo) ,either way, check went to Greg.JJackson

In round numbers what does a set of set up JRZ's run?

[PeeGreen 914]

Around $6 to $7k the last timeI talked to Greg. May be a little more now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[J P Stein]

Around $6 to $7k the last timeI talked to Greg. May be a little more now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I can think of several ways to spend that kind of money on items that I think will decrease lap times more effectively.....none of which have an equal bling factor, but there it is......that would seem to be true for every car I see represented on this forum.

If you need that last tenth to win your class at the Nats they may be worth it.

[PeeGreen 914]

There are many mods you can do at different price points. Once you do all of the inexpensive ones sometime you have to start on the very expensive ones that don't gain much. I would guess in the National picture that once you get to that level every little advantage helps.

[grantsfo]

Around $6 to $7k the last timeI talked to Greg. May be a little more now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I can think of several ways to spend that kind of money on items that I think will decrease lap times more effectively.....none of which have an equal bling factor, but there it is......that would seem to be true for every car I see represented on this forum.

If you need that last tenth to win your class at the Nats they may be worth it.

Just spend some time at National event with large number of top notch competitors. Speak with top racing teams who model suspensions and see what their data says. Spend some time actually testing and seeing difference between a standard koni or Bilstein tube and a well built cansiter shock. The difference in handling is remarkable. On track I was able to tune issues out of the car very easy with JRZ's. Even at AX when we had issues we completely changed handling of the car. Good 3 way adjustable shocks are awesome for multipurpose car. I would argue a 914 is even in more need of a good damper than most modern cars as you are dealing with non abs braking systems, less than ideal suspension geometry, etc. When JP's car was beaten by stock Miatas at National tour event I can assure you those Miatas had better shocks than his car. Not a bunch of "mods". Almost every top car in Street Prepared, Prepared and Modified use top notch 3 way adjustable shocks with cans. Remember JP is the guy that used to tell us that his 200 HP motor was too powerful for his race slick clad E mod 914 and that he couldnt keep power to the ground. ...hmmmm Now the car has 350 HP? double hmmmm.

If you are interested in being fastest in a given class high quality triple adjustable shocks are best bang for the buck investment. in my opinion If you are like JP and some others and just want to beat street cars in a fast modified 914 on race tires then I would agree good set of shocks is a waste of money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

I'm curious. Now that AST has bought Moton I hear that they will keep Moton as premium offering and offer AST as more mid range damper. The race team I work with on my Z uses AST 3 way adjustables on Grand Am cars as part of sponsorship and contingency package and while they arent quite as nice as the JRz's they are very capable shock. Wonder if they make a application for the 914?

http://www.ast-usa.com/ast-usa-shock-absor...roduct-list.php

[PeeGreen 914]

There is no question that an adjustable shock is needed. It is all about dollar vs time benefit. When planning you have to put an order of what will shave time most, driver aside. Going with a single stage matched to my bars and springs is a hard step as I have seen the advantages of having even the lowly Koni adjustables at different venues or weather conditions. If only I could stumble across some JRZs for very little (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That said, I am going with revalved Bils to match my weight, and spring for now.

[J P Stein]

When JP's car was beaten by stock Miatas at National tour event I can assure you those Miatas had better shocks than his car.

At your last Tour event you finished what?.....6-7 sec back from your class winner?
Blather on dude.

[jmill]

Easy fellas.... We'll zip'em down and show'em later. Right now help me get this figured out.

I've got $3 to 4K to get this thing on it's wheels and $2,400 is burnt up already. JRZ's are out of the question. I still need a front AS bar, trailing arm bushings and rear brakes. I'm waiting on the Rebel rear bushings so that's off the table for another month. I'm debating whether or not to go with the 914/6 or 911 calipers. The 6 will calipers blow my budget. I have front A calipers. Heavy as hell but what I have to work with at the moment. I'll upgrade to the S caliper later. In the meantime what would you guys recommend? Go with the 6 or 911?