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> 914-6 header size
campbellcj
post Apr 18 2003, 10:08 PM
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I was planning to run a Jet-Hot coated 1 1/2" Bursch header, but I learned today that the 1 1/2"'s are back-ordered and apparently are produced in much lower volume than the 1 5/8" units.

Would it make a lot of difference (negative, probably) in power/torque to run the larger size? This is a factory -6 motor built to 2.2S spec. Application is "mostly" track events only; low-end torque is not a huge priority.

If I really have to, I could wait potentially 6-8 weeks for the 1.5's but I'd rather not...
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Mueller
post Apr 18 2003, 10:46 PM
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What kind of muffler do you plan on running?

By using a "tunable" muffler, you might be able to compensate for the larger primaries.
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Jeroen
post Apr 19 2003, 06:15 AM
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Brad recommended 1.5" headers for up to 3 or 3.2 engines
Going bigger will give you some more top end power, but will cost you torque
Since you already have quite a peaky engine, putting narrowing down the powerband wouldn't be what I'd do
So, if I were you, I'd wait for the 1.5" headers...

Have you tried other sources for headers? Rich Johnson, Triad?

Just my 0.02 euro's

Jeroen
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campbellcj
post Apr 19 2003, 09:19 AM
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Thanks guys - that's what I thought. Lemme see if I can dig up some 1.5"'s. The Bursch manufacturer is right in Pasadena (about a half hour from me) so how hard could it really be...

I spoke to George Narbel about his European Racing headers but he uses a flat "scalloped merge" type of collector vs a triangulated one like Bursch. I dunno which is better (?)...I'm not a real Bursch fan but if they perform better and are cheaper, then I'll become one quick.

We may actually send my engine up to Jerry Woods for dyno tuning and carb mods/rejetting. Perhaps it would be worth asking him what the "next best thing" is after the $3K S-Car-Go header.
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krk
post Apr 19 2003, 10:01 AM
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Chris,

I've been on two classes taught by Jerry. Very impressive guy. His level of btdt is mind boggling. He answered tons of questions much like the one you are asking -- seemed to have built/tuned/measured so many things that I gotta believe he'd have some pretty sound advice.

kim.
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Brad Roberts
post Apr 19 2003, 10:53 AM
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Both collectors SUCK. European really doesnt have a merged collector and Bursch's flat triangle leaves a lot on the table.

I'm really really surprised you would send the engine up here for dyno time. One chassis dyno session with a handful of jets/venturi's will yield the same results. This isnt a full on race engine where you are trying to get the n'th degree out of it. Wood's dyno prices are around 800$. You could fire off an email to Bruce Anderson or Rich Walton and "ask" them what to run in the carbs.

What shy'd you away from the elcheapo Flowmaster (besides old people stuck in their ways??)

B
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seanery
post Apr 19 2003, 11:03 AM
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Chris,

I would consider selling you mine if you replaced them.
They were used for a couple trips around the block before the motor was rebuilt, still look new, jet hotted already, and are in Marina Del Rey.

I'll be there on Friday.

Let me know.
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J P Stein
post Apr 19 2003, 11:05 AM
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I'd recommend the JP school of car building.
Buy a set of Bursch headers and run em' for a while.
Get a wild hair up your ass and buy something better, then sell the old ones for half price or less.

Sometimes I don't even bother putting the stuff on the car. It works for me.....tho my retirement continues to move further off into the future . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Jerry Woods?.....well, ye$$$$, but eventually you're gonna have to learn to DIY. Who ever you take it to needs to let you look over their shoulder. IMO, If you don't have an MSD set-up on it, you need to do that before you take it to a tuner.
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seanery
post Apr 19 2003, 11:12 AM
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JP,

Really sold on the MSD?
Why so?
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Brad Roberts
post Apr 19 2003, 11:26 AM
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It keeps the plugs clean for blip throttle. The MSD doesnt do anything over 3K rpm (very nice rev limit however)

B
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Gint
post Apr 19 2003, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE
I'd recommend the JP school of car building.
Buy a set of Bursch headers and run em' for a while.
Get a wild hair up your ass and buy something better, then sell the old ones for half price or less.

Sometimes I don't even bother putting the stuff on the car. It works for me.....tho my retirement continues to move further off into the future .  


That's too funny. I don't know how many parts I've bought that I've never used.

Anybody wanna buy a 4 cyl KH/Supertrapp? Never used by the current owner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
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J P Stein
post Apr 19 2003, 12:07 PM
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MSD has it's uses.
As Brad says, it keeps the plugs from fouling.
If you have a cam with a lot of overlap and have rich running Webers, this becomes a problem.

Besides the MSD unit, one also needs one of their hot coils (45K+ volts) and some killer plug wires to keep the spark in. It also allows one to open up the gap on the plugs. I use .045.
These coils will continue to supply the high voltage at high rpms, something "normal" coils won't do.

Not much value in the set-up (IMO) for a FI motor, tho.....unless you have high boost from your turbo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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seanery
post Apr 19 2003, 02:20 PM
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I've got/still rebuilding a 2.7 w/S cams / the above mentioned headers/ webers/ ported heads/ RS Pistons...sounds like a good match for a msd?

I was considering one before (6AL) for the limiter, but if there are other bene's then all the better.
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campbellcj
post Apr 19 2003, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Apr 19 2003, 08:53 AM)
Both collectors SUCK. European really doesnt have a merged collector and Bursch's flat triangle leaves a lot on the table.

I'm really really surprised you would send the engine up here for dyno time. One chassis dyno session with a handful of jets/venturi's will yield the same results. This isnt a full on race engine where you are trying to get the n'th degree out of it. Wood's dyno prices are around 800$. You could fire off an email to Bruce Anderson or Rich Walton and "ask" them what to run in the carbs.

What shy'd you away from the elcheapo Flowmaster (besides old people stuck in their ways??)

B

Do you know of a (good) chassis dyno down here? JW uses Jerry Wood's engine dyno for the "serious shit" but I'm not quite that serious yet.

I was just eyeballing the Triad header on their site. Which setup works best for <$500? Are there others besides the 3 I've mentioned?

I still will need to come up with a "super quiet" exhaust for certain events, eventually. That will probably be a Flowmaster with a mellow street/race muffler (50 series?). I know of a local shop who can fab it for me cheap. I may bail on the megaphones completely if they will totally kill the torque; the sport muffler will have very little backpressure as it is, and will stay on the car most of the time. I should be able to drive to the track with that muffler and not get arrested...

Sean - thanks for the offer. Not in that huge a rush; I can just keep these rusted loaner mystery headers on the car for the next event if need be.
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brant
post Apr 19 2003, 04:29 PM
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bump...

(I want to hear more)...

brad if both suck... then what are you recommending...

brant
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J P Stein
post Apr 19 2003, 04:35 PM
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Sean:

Ayup, a good match.

On another note. I was talked out of S cams by Steve Weiner. At the time, the car was a sometimes
AX car, but primarly street driven. He told m that S cams and Webers don't get allong well till one gets onto the bump. Since most street driving is done on the idle circuit, he suggested Es or Solexs. As it turns out, they're prolly better for AX also.

BTW, Bursch doesn't have a "flat" triangle. it's one pipe stacked on 2.
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seanery
post Apr 19 2003, 05:28 PM
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JP-
-My car is track only, so shouldn't be a problem.

Chris-
-You're welcome to try them out if'n you like. Its taking a long time to get mine done, so a little use is no problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)
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J P Stein
post Apr 19 2003, 05:52 PM
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If it's track only, why put them candyass 8.5:1 pistons in it ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I use the 6al. They do have "new improved" units
that do everything but give you a winning lotto number.

"shouldn't be a problem"........I find myself using that line less and less. There is a learning curve on this stuff ( he said dryly). It took me months to get my motor right......but I am kinda dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
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seanery
post Apr 19 2003, 06:07 PM
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This is try #2. The only thing not replaced on #1 was the oil pump. FIGURES. And it's buried in the bottom of the efin case.
So, this #2. Hopefully there won't be a try #3 til I get a 3.2 in the car and put the 2.7 in the white car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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Brad Roberts
post Apr 20 2003, 01:33 PM
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Chris,

Show us the pic of the Triad. I *might* come up with something for you depending on your time frame.

JP,

Which headers is it that has the flat triangle ?? That header has a better merge than the other one.


B
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