I was planning to run a Jet-Hot coated 1 1/2" Bursch header, but I learned today that the 1 1/2"'s are back-ordered and apparently are produced in much lower volume than the 1 5/8" units.

Would it make a lot of difference (negative, probably) in power/torque to run the larger size? This is a factory -6 motor built to 2.2S spec. Application is "mostly" track events only; low-end torque is not a huge priority.

If I really have to, I could wait potentially 6-8 weeks for the 1.5's but I'd rather not...

What kind of muffler do you plan on running?

By using a "tunable" muffler, you might be able to compensate for the larger primaries.

Brad recommended 1.5" headers for up to 3 or 3.2 engines
Going bigger will give you some more top end power, but will cost you torque
Since you already have quite a peaky engine, putting narrowing down the powerband wouldn't be what I'd do
So, if I were you, I'd wait for the 1.5" headers...

Have you tried other sources for headers? Rich Johnson, Triad?

Just my 0.02 euro's

Jeroen

Thanks guys - that's what I thought. Lemme see if I can dig up some 1.5"'s. The Bursch manufacturer is right in Pasadena (about a half hour from me) so how hard could it really be...

I spoke to George Narbel about his European Racing headers but he uses a flat "scalloped merge" type of collector vs a triangulated one like Bursch. I dunno which is better (?)...I'm not a real Bursch fan but if they perform better and are cheaper, then I'll become one quick.

We may actually send my engine up to Jerry Woods for dyno tuning and carb mods/rejetting. Perhaps it would be worth asking him what the "next best thing" is after the $3K S-Car-Go header.

Chris,

I've been on two classes taught by Jerry. Very impressive guy. His level of btdt is mind boggling. He answered tons of questions much like the one you are asking -- seemed to have built/tuned/measured so many things that I gotta believe he'd have some pretty sound advice.

kim.

Both collectors SUCK. European really doesnt have a merged collector and Bursch's flat triangle leaves a lot on the table.

I'm really really surprised you would send the engine up here for dyno time. One chassis dyno session with a handful of jets/venturi's will yield the same results. This isnt a full on race engine where you are trying to get the n'th degree out of it. Wood's dyno prices are around 800$. You could fire off an email to Bruce Anderson or Rich Walton and "ask" them what to run in the carbs.

What shy'd you away from the elcheapo Flowmaster (besides old people stuck in their ways??)

B

Chris,

I would consider selling you mine if you replaced them.
They were used for a couple trips around the block before the motor was rebuilt, still look new, jet hotted already, and are in Marina Del Rey.

I'll be there on Friday.

Let me know.

I'd recommend the JP school of car building.
Buy a set of Bursch headers and run em' for a while.
Get a wild hair up your ass and buy something better, then sell the old ones for half price or less.

Sometimes I don't even bother putting the stuff on the car. It works for me.....tho my retirement continues to move further off into the future .

Jerry Woods?.....well, ye$$$$, but eventually you're gonna have to learn to DIY. Who ever you take it to needs to let you look over their shoulder. IMO, If you don't have an MSD set-up on it, you need to do that before you take it to a tuner.

JP,

Really sold on the MSD?
Why so?

It keeps the plugs clean for blip throttle. The MSD doesnt do anything over 3K rpm (very nice rev limit however)

B

That's too funny. I don't know how many parts I've bought that I've never used.

Anybody wanna buy a 4 cyl KH/Supertrapp? Never used by the current owner?

MSD has it's uses.
As Brad says, it keeps the plugs from fouling.
If you have a cam with a lot of overlap and have rich running Webers, this becomes a problem.

Besides the MSD unit, one also needs one of their hot coils (45K+ volts) and some killer plug wires to keep the spark in. It also allows one to open up the gap on the plugs. I use .045.
These coils will continue to supply the high voltage at high rpms, something "normal" coils won't do.

Not much value in the set-up (IMO) for a FI motor, tho.....unless you have high boost from your turbo.

I've got/still rebuilding a 2.7 w/S cams / the above mentioned headers/ webers/ ported heads/ RS Pistons...sounds like a good match for a msd?

I was considering one before (6AL) for the limiter, but if there are other bene's then all the better.

Do you know of a (good) chassis dyno down here? JW uses Jerry Wood's engine dyno for the "serious shit" but I'm not quite that serious yet.

I was just eyeballing the Triad header on their site. Which setup works best for <$500? Are there others besides the 3 I've mentioned?

I still will need to come up with a "super quiet" exhaust for certain events, eventually. That will probably be a Flowmaster with a mellow street/race muffler (50 series?). I know of a local shop who can fab it for me cheap. I may bail on the megaphones completely if they will totally kill the torque; the sport muffler will have very little backpressure as it is, and will stay on the car most of the time. I should be able to drive to the track with that muffler and not get arrested...

Sean - thanks for the offer. Not in that huge a rush; I can just keep these rusted loaner mystery headers on the car for the next event if need be.

bump...

(I want to hear more)...

brad if both suck... then what are you recommending...

brant

Sean:

Ayup, a good match.

On another note. I was talked out of S cams by Steve Weiner. At the time, the car was a sometimes
AX car, but primarly street driven. He told m that S cams and Webers don't get allong well till one gets onto the bump. Since most street driving is done on the idle circuit, he suggested Es or Solexs. As it turns out, they're prolly better for AX also.

BTW, Bursch doesn't have a "flat" triangle. it's one pipe stacked on 2.

JP-
-My car is track only, so shouldn't be a problem.

Chris-
-You're welcome to try them out if'n you like. Its taking a long time to get mine done, so a little use is no problem.

If it's track only, why put them candyass 8.5:1 pistons in it ?

I use the 6al. They do have "new improved" units
that do everything but give you a winning lotto number.

"shouldn't be a problem"........I find myself using that line less and less. There is a learning curve on this stuff ( he said dryly). It took me months to get my motor right......but I am kinda dumb.

This is try #2. The only thing not replaced on #1 was the oil pump. FIGURES. And it's buried in the bottom of the efin case.
So, this #2. Hopefully there won't be a try #3 til I get a 3.2 in the car and put the 2.7 in the white car!

Chris,

Show us the pic of the Triad. I *might* come up with something for you depending on your time frame.

JP,

Which headers is it that has the flat triangle ?? That header has a better merge than the other one.


B

The flat triangle jobbies are sold by AA.....dunno who makes em.....prolly by a bunch of inbred, big haided, slanty eyed goobers so far up a Georgia haller that ya gotta pump in daylight.....that's just a guess.
No offense intended. Go Dawgs.

The European Racing Headers dude (George Narbel) is the one who says he has the flat scalloped triangle merge. I'm not positive, but I think his stuff is retailed by GT Racing as well (at a robust markup).

Here's a pic of the Triad (from their site):



I'd love to be a beta tester for an SSI header, but I need 'em pretty quick (about 5 weeks, ideally less).

The RSR style are for a ...... well 911. The ones pictured wont fit a 911 engine in a 914.

B

What do you guys think about the collector design on the Triad 914-6 header?

I know that the one on the left marked "RSR Style Style Headers" (LOL) is for a 911... :finger2:

http://www.hergesheimer.com/

You could try Herg. I've helped them work on a couple of their race cars in the past when they were pressed for time.

-Aaron G>

Thanks Aaron - I didn't know Mark had a dyno.

Soooo...Triad hasn't returned my email or voicemail. Greg @ GPR is saying that barely anybody buys the 1.5's from them and that in his opinion the 1.625 (1 5/8) should be fine on a small displacement engine.

I'd love to see dyno sheets with different 914-6 exhaust setups. Sounds like a fun project for Brad in his "spare time".

Here's a pic of the Bursch (linked from Pelican Parts):

May 2nd the dyno tanks start their resurrection. Should have a running dyno cell by the middle of June if not sooner.

People tend to forget that TORQUE moves you forward NOT HP. Build as much torque as possible and gear accordingly.


B

Here's a pic of the GT Racing one, that "I think" is made by George Narbel (European Racing):

Are "stub pipes" ever used on 911 engines or is it a non-issue??

We have one of everything sitting here at the shop and I have not seen a stub pipe anywhere. (including 3 different sets of 9146 headers)

Chris,

Those are the headers that we most commonly use on the 914's. There is ZERO magic in that collector. Buy them, sell them when I'm ready to release a 9146 header. I'll let you know before we release them so you can sell them...LOL

B

ugh hummmm, will ya tell me too?!

Hmmm...Triad isn't selling the 914-6 header at the moment...their manufacturer (tube bender/welder) crapped out.

I guess the Bursch is it then. The price is right and it canl be here (JetHot coated) in about a week.

just for my own clarification then...

-brad.. It sounds like the european is the one you are referencing at "most used"
-I also interpret that the SSI will be better when its ready.
-thanks for the pictures chris.. are there other options out there?.. I see= 1)triad 2)european 3)bursch I know that 4) S Car Go, makes a header, which I assume is the best but very expensive?
Anything else?

thanks guys.
p.s. Brad, what date do you anticipate?

No date. Fall of 2003. I personally want a header from us... so I'm driving the process.

The SSI will work just as well if not a tad better than the SCARGO and be priced a little more reasonably. We have tube benders.. they have 90 degree bends that they cut up to make each tube going to the collector they buy (we make ours)

B

With regard to other exhaust systems available for 914-6, I believe Pete Weber Performance Products makes a system using Phase 9 Silencers. I am pretty sure it would be the most expensive on the list.

Neat....

I liked the 87-90 db!

that's pretty damn good!!!

Damn..

He uses a nicer jig than we do (his is a 3.6) ours is a 2.7 LOL

B

ChrisF,

Please have Petes web guy lock the web server down a little tighter.

http://www.beadform.com/images/

We have access to all the pics on the server..

I dont think the headers shown for the 914 setup will work for anything but a 3.6 engine or a 3.2/3.0/2.0-7 unless you have a oil cooler blockoff plate. I could be wrong.. but...


B

Just for completeness, here's a pic of the S-Car-Go header. A tad spendy at $3,300...