Finally driving again!, Type IV CIS conversion Options

[dlee6204]

[type47]

That's beautiful! I have a plastic "S" shaped pipe that is used in the VW intake system. One end fits the boot at the oval end but then goes to about 2.5" circular opening which is what I'm looking for parts for. I think I'll try to mount the injectors like this:

an idea I found in my searches. I got the concave washers today from some core heads in the parts stash. Thanks to root for letting me work at his shop today.

[Dion]

Nice work Jim,

My set up is using PVC pipe and Jubilee clamps for connecting the Rabbit/GTi
airbox to the throttle body. Good solution on the injectors. My fuel lines are a bit of a mix right now. Rubber & braided steel. I think they are from a 924 set up if I remember correctly. I have a 911 cold start injector on the plenum.

[type47]

Thanks for the pix, Dion. I asked this ? before; did your engine start right up when the CIS system was bolted on? What kind of adjustment did you have to do on first start-up, if any? Plans are to fire it up at the ECC Oct 12...

[rhodyguy]

will second generation jetta etc, cis work as well?

k

[914dave]

Thanks for the pix, Dion. I asked this ? before; did your engine start right up when the CIS system was bolted on? What kind of adjustment did you have to do on first start-up, if any? Plans are to fire it up at the ECC Oct 12...

Jim
Once all the air came out of the system Dion's system fired right off. Set the idle mixture after you warm it up. We picked up a CO2 meter to tweek in the idle mixture. We set it a little on the rich side because it keeps the mixture a little rich all the way through. Don't want to lean it out at all. I like your washer idea. That'll work just fine. Did the I ring fit in the stock injector bore or did you open it up?
Dave

[type47]

I like your washer idea. That'll work just fine. Did the I ring fit in the stock injector bore or did you open it up?

Actually not my idea, I found the pix online. The outer radius of the collar washer needs to be decreased to fit in the factory injector holder. I also want to open the center hold slightly to fit the injector. Here's what I did today w/HD parts

Can't find my throttle body gasket! Need ignition wires and alt cable grommet. Trip to the machine shop tomorrow to do injector holders/spacers

[Dion]

Hey Jim,
Glad Dave responded to your question. Didn't see till late (too many patients).
As Dave said, car coughed,sputtered then cleared its throat.
Once idle was dialed in and timing adjustments done all
was ok. Co2 sniffer helped narrow the rich/lean
questions. Nice progress. Look good.
Keep at it.

[type47]

Found an even better way to mount the injectors. 1-1/4" fender washers; drilled out the center to fit the injector. Rod machined 1" spacers ... thanks root!


still have to paint and mount/replace intake air distributor. Don't see why it can't be ready to try to fire up at ECC. Oh, no exhaust; just stubs ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[jaxdream]

This has been a great thread to follow . I have a question about the injector retention methods shown here , sequence - o ring, spacer, larger o ring , washer, clamp - correct ?? and this does hold / keep the injector seated into the injector cavity even with the hi pressure that they run under , also does the hole at the end of the injector get covered or uncovered. Gotta ask if you don't know / haven't experienced.

Jack

[914_teener]

Jake is your carb cam (the one similar to the 494) too aggressive for CIS?
Zach

After years of working CIS on other engines, I suspect it is. If the cam gets too agressive, the air lever in the fuel dizzy starts to move erratically. In theory, this can be abated by adding anti revision geometry to the intake track, but I've never tried it/seen it. I've only read about it from some of the ancient notes from Drake Engineering. That said, as you increase air velocity, cam becomes less and less important. I've run rabbit 8v engines well over 200hp on CIS. In that environment we could get away with cams that simply wouldn't work at lower air flow.

I've seen CIS come up a lot lately, is there something in the air? Anyone ever thought of going digifant? Digifant I lends itself easily to an engine like the type iv.

The 9530 cam that I have is supposed to run well with CIS. Jake says that he has used it for CIS engines in the past.

That said, I'm going to MSII.

Zach

So after messing and running MSII now III right?.... do you still believe that?

Your thoughts.

I like this conversion for its pure simplicity.

[914dave]

Found an even better way to mount the injectors. 1-1/4" fender washers; drilled out the center to fit the injector. Rod machined 1" spacers ... thanks root!


still have to paint and mount/replace intake air distributor. Don't see why it can't be ready to try to fire up at ECC. Oh, no exhaust; just stubs ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Jim
I like this solution. It solves the bung fabrication and welding that keeps more of these from being converted. Let's get an exhaust on this and fire it up!
Dave

[type47]

I have a question about the injector retention methods shown here , sequence - o ring, spacer, larger o ring , washer, clamp - correct ??

yes, in fact, the most left "o-ring" is a D-Jet injector small seal. There are 2 washers used.

and this does hold / keep the injector seated into the injector cavity even with the hi pressure that they run under , also does the hole at the end of the injector get covered or uncovered.

we haven't fired this up but I think the arrangement will hold up to the high injector pressure. It's pretty secure. The holes you refer to are the 4 small holes on the side? They are not covered up. Of course the hole at the end of the injector is free, that's the business end. I/we haven't run this particular engine yet to see if everything will be a success but plan to try at the ECC Oct 12. The motor is out of the car for testing and adjustment. I have a header exhaust, no muffler, that was on the engine when it was a race (PCA club racing) car. This cis system eliminates the ECU, MPS, decel valve, trigger points in the distributor, air cleaner assembly, throttle position sensor

[jaxdream]

Thanks Jim , that was a great clarification , mentioning that the far left seal is actually a D-Jet system seal specifically. Look forward to more info on this setup as it progresses. It seems to be a very simple system with a few adjustments as long as certain parameters are addressed and maintained. TIA...

Jack

[type47]

Progress is on schedule to try to fire this thing up at the ECC Oct 12 at roots. Just a couple of questions for the collective brain trust:

1) do I need to have an accumulator in the fuel supply? We are "bench" testing this set-up; the engine is mated to a tranny mostly for the sake of having a starter and is out of the car on a caster system. I imagine we only start and run it for a short time, 30-45-60 seconds. I have an accumulator for the final install, just not connected at this time.

2) Do I need to connect to a relay board? We will supply power using a car battery with a trickle charger connected. Can we run the engine off battery power alone? I think since there will be no current in the alternator field windings, there is no need for a voltage regulator since without field winding current there would be no alternator output. Correct?

3) I think the ECC brain trust collective will be able to wire up the starter and power to the dizzy with Pertronix (before (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) ). I have gauges: VDO oil pressure that can be connected to a dual sender, vacuum ...

The project is on the bill:

[dlee6204]

You shouldn't need an accumulator. I don't run one on my car and I have had no issues.

[type47]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRLyDnp7G_0

[jimkelly]

stainless steel braided fuel lines of CIS is way cool.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2460-1381631003.jpg)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fJAfXYxWk

[Kraftwerk]

Jim,
enjoyed that film and the narration...