Synthetic or not?, What weight oil should be used? Options

[Jake Raby]

A few points:
-It takes more than high Zinc content to create an oil thats kind to vintage engines

-The anti-wear and detergency package ratios are very important and are often overlooked

-Modern oils that are available over the counter locally are for modern engines. Modern engines are SOHC/DOHC or utilize roller lifters.

-The API has focused more on clean engines than anything else since 2000 when people stopped buying cars and started leasing then; often not changing the oil for the entire lease period! The big 3 lost millions due to this.

--VR 1 is a straight weight oil, usually 50Wt. Watch the oil pressure light at start up with it and you'll note that it takes a second to go off at start up.. Thats because the oil has a crazy pour rate at ambient temp and takes a while to build pressure.. CRAZY engine wear occurs when this happens at start up.

- When attending a tribology seminar hosted by an API Certified Lubrication Specialist the question popped up about aftermarket additives. That question was "When should additives be used?" The CLS replied " NEVER".

Read the oil article at www.lnengineering.com for more detailed info. Charles and I have been developing oil since 2005 and have exhausted ourselves trying to find whats necessary to keep my engines and his components alive.

This is a normal number of oil samples that I send in to the lab at Lubrizol as we keep trying to perfect the perfect aircooled oil. I have a fleet of 14 test vehicles that range from VW and Porsche as well as Pinzgauer and even my aircooled lawnmover.. From 22HP clear to 620HP we have all the bases covered with extensive records of each oil that has been ran. Every engine we build has break in samples pulled and evaluated/ compared to all those before it and we continue this if the customer is willing to send in 8 oz. of their oil and pay a 75 dollar processing charge.
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[messix]

check out jegs or summit racing for the break in lube additives or just use a quart of break in oil in every oil change. that should give you enough of the zinc and phos to keep an engine from melt down.

[nsr-jamie]

I can't get the Brad Penn or Snake oil here in Japan as it would cost a fortune to import...so I use MOTUL 20W50 which is semi-synthetic and works great...lots of air cooled VW guys use it here...

[Jake Raby]

check out jegs or summit racing for the break in lube additives or just use a quart of break in oil in every oil change. that should give you enough of the zinc and phos to keep an engine from melt down.

Yet again, additives that are not made part of the package during formulation should be avoided. I have never seen anything good come from these in a UOA.

Outside the USA most oils are good; because the API doesn't impact oils outside the US. Motul products are very good in general.

[messix]

check out jegs or summit racing for the break in lube additives or just use a quart of break in oil in every oil change. that should give you enough of the zinc and phos to keep an engine from melt down.

Yet again, additives that are not made part of the package during formulation should be avoided. I have never seen anything good come from these in a UOA.

Outside the USA most oils are good; because the API doesn't impact oils outside the US. Motul products are very good in general.

so what you are saying jake is that it's better to run what ever oil you have access to with out any zinc or phos than it is to add a break in additive that does have the zinc and phos?

that really would be what is best for the engine under those conditions???

i know jake that you will only do what is perfect... but what about the rest of us mear mortals that do not have access or funds to do 80 dollar oil changes.

[brant]

The only real way to know if an additive is working is to tear down the engine and assess wear (in a controlled environment)

I will say that ALL engine builders (mine included) don't like additives. There is no guarantee that the ratio, formula, or compatability will work with what you are adding it to

I'm about to tear down a motor this winter that went for 5 years of racing (100hours) on GM EOS additives. I'm quite curious to see how the cams look.

But repeatedly I'm told that it is better to buy oil with the correct ingredients than it is to add.

I'm still pouring old stock EOS into my beater toyota truck because I have it. But I switched over to royal purple for the race car because its already correctly blended.

There isn't much savings to adding an additive versus buying the right oil. Additives are about 10$ an oil change and the difference in say mobil 1 and royal purple is only $3ish a quart
so a tiny savings but not a big one.

[ripper911]

So I should change my oil again, get rid of the VR1 20w50?
Jake mentioned the 50 weight VR1 but is the 20w50 as bad at start-up?

[Jake Raby]

Aftermarket additives in general make good oils LESS effective.. They also make bad oils LESS effective. I have learned this on the dyno in back to back tests of just dumping the additive in. I have also seen this in UOA gathered before and after an additive was introduced.

Creating an imbalance in the anti-wear and detergency packages is exactly what aftermarket additvies are good for.

What the API has done to oils for vintage engines absolutely sucks. Oil development is pain staking, expensive and takes forever to actually see results. A type 4 engine roughly holds 4 quarts of oil.. My Snake oil is 39 bucks and change for a gallon. 10 gallons of fuel will cost you that much and will only take you 300 miles or so.. The oil change is good for 3,000 miles; so if you can afford gas for your car you simply can't afford not to run the proper oil.

Joe Gibbs and I are working on co-marketing the Aircooled Oil in 2012.. This means you'll be able to buy it cheaper and at any location where Gibbs products are sold. To date we have only been selling this oil to our engine purchasers and kit owners, but that will change soon.. The Gibbs bottle will have the Raby endorsement right on the label :-)

[p914]

So for the time being, Brad Penn 20/50 is still one of the best oils to use...correct?

[brant]

the Brad Penn oils are not a true synthetic.
Jake can correct me, but I think they are called para-synthetics?

it has to do with how they are composed and they don't have the qualities of a true synthetic

The brad Penn's have good additives, but ultimately I prefer synthetics in air cooled engines.

[p914]

I understand that. But brad penn is still one of the best oils for the type iv yes?

[JFJ914]

I understand that. But brad penn is still one of the best oils for the type iv yes?

Yes.

[Jake Raby]

I sent an oil concern letter out last year to my engine and engine kit purchasers. I then posted it on the lubrication forum of my online community.
I will also post the link here:

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Oil_Concern.pdf

This information is still valid and it was written because not all Brad Penn oils are the same.

[p914]

I will also post the link here:

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Oil_Concern.pdf

This information is still valid and it was written because not all Brad Penn oils are the same.

That link to the letter should make it pretty clear and simple to tell whether you are using the right oil.

Since my rebuild Brad Penn 20/50 High Performance "The Green Oil" is The only oil that has gone in my engine. I'm jes waitin on sum o dat Snake Oil to be distributed to give it a try. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

[brant]

I understand that. But brad penn is still one of the best oils for the type iv yes?

If you don't want to run a synthetic
the original poster was asking if he should run synthetic

[p914]

If you don't want to run a synthetic
the original poster was asking if he should run synthetic
[/quote]
Not trying to argue this point but only address the original question.

The topic is synthetic or not.
His original request:
"Here's the skinny. I have an unmolested 1971 1.7 with original FI. What oil should I be using in this car. Brand, weight, etc."

He has a choice to make. Synthetic or not? Whether it's synth, not synth or a combo(partial synth), what matters is the the oil will have the right stuff in it to make that engine perform and last like it was originally meant to. Jake's letter has all the info to really make a good decision on what kind of oil to use. Brad Penn High Performance or Racing oil is partial synthetic and contains the needed ingredients to maintain that unmolested 1971 1.7 with the right kind of oil.

[Porschewagon]

It may appear I was too quick to make a decision on which oil to use. I changed it the other day using royal purple 20/50. Am I safe to assume this oil is ok. After reading the letter posted, it seems only the Brad Penn and the snake oil was the only way to go. I'll look for the Brad Penn on the next change. Thanks for all the input everyone! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[brant]

It may appear I was too quick to make a decision on which oil to use. I changed it the other day using royal purple 20/50. Am I safe to assume this oil is ok. After reading the letter posted, it seems only the Brad Penn and the snake oil was the only way to go. I'll look for the Brad Penn on the next change. Thanks for all the input everyone! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Royal Purple is absolutely fine
that is my frustration with everyone spouting about brad penn... It IS NOT the only option out there. In fact since it is not a true synthetic some could argue that it is the WORST of the available oils with the correct formula
( zinc/phosphorus/and additives )

if you want a synthetic and the better qualities of dealing with heat (air cooled motors), possibly improving lubrication, and less break down then you have 20 or so oils to choose from. One of the good ones is royal purple

If you do not want a synthetic then brad penn is an option

leave the royal purple in
its fine

brant

[Rand]

if you want a synthetic and the better qualities of dealing with heat (air cooled motors), possibly improving lubrication, and less break down then you have 20 or so oils to choose from. One of the good ones is royal purple

I'm guessing you are running XPR? Looks like HPS would be well-suited for street cars. Any input on which formula, pros/cons?

[brant]

I haven't really even looked at the HPS
my recommendation is to check the API rating (in the starburst on the bottle)
you don't want an oil that meets the SM rating system

make sure the HPS oils are not within that new rating
I don't even use the racing oil, because their normal oil is not SM

I'm only one motor on it
but my builder had probably 15 or 20 race motors on it now.

I met with another local race only builder to talk oils.
Specifically to talk air cooled 911 oils.
He (Steve Rowe) has fielded an ALMS car before and built all of the motors and transmissions for 3R racing who won the speedvision GT catagory about 3 years total with randy pobst, gallati, pilgrim driving

not a bad source of information
he told me 2 weeks ago that he has now moved all of his air cooled race cars over to the Valvolene VR1 full synthetic multiweight oils. He said you have to buy the "off road" packaged version to get away from the SM rating

Check the API rating no matter what brand
look at the starburst packaging!
I check every single quart that goes into the motor and its a 5 gallon oil system now on my 2.0/6 (20quart system)

We do oil changes every single weekend of use.
so about ever 2-3 hours of run time gets a valve adjustment, head torque check, and full oil change.

brant