Where to get tubes for cage/stiffening?, Also what kind? Options

[ChrisFoley]

Will reinforcing the suspension consoles with tubing not help with the cracking and tearing?

A piece of 1" dia tubing is an excellent choice for the inner console. This is what I am using on my race cars.
First I weld a piece of .080" thick sheetmetal to the front side of the console and to the bottom of the firewall near the round depression. Then I weld a piece of tubing between them. The forces the inner console sees are primarily pushing it forward so the tubular brace spreads this force into the firewall and floorpan. No picture available right now, sorry.

For the outer console I use a shaped piece of .080 sheetmetal as shown, along with a piece of 3x2x.083w rectangular tube that is cut in a triangular shape.
(IMG:http://www.tangerineracing.com/images/Suspension&Brakes/rearsusp_reinf.JPG)
I can fabricate these parts for you. (See my website. Suspension Page ) This will keep the area from flexing, and will eliminate the likelihood of cracking.

tell me how to prevent the tearing and separating so that I can run higher spring rates in the rear with no worries.

The spring rates aren't what causes the cracking. It's the sticky tires that increase the G loading.
According to Brad Roberts there is one more area that is prone to cracks, but I have never seen it. The area is at the rear of the main frame rail where it meets the rear engine comp. bulkhead. Apparently inside is a joint with inadequate welding between the panels which might fail due to high spring rates and 6 cyl engines which add a lot of weight to the car.

Well, sorry to intrude on your little club.

Pay no attention to the harsh remarks. You are certainly welcome to ask questions like these on this forum, and with a little luck someone with suitable answers will respond. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

[corpselaurel]

Thanks larry and chris.
Chris, how much do you charge to fab those pieces? You can pm me if you wish - I didn't see a price on your site.

So I should stick to the engmans & clams? I just thought that using tubing would not only provide the same benifit but also help the suspension consoles while being more cost effective.

Brad roberts stated on this page that this setup....
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1042595788.jpg)

Looks good to me for a aggressive street car. The front tube doesnt need to go that high. It can stop at the back side of the fenderwell. The fenderwells are very very strong material. Welding to them as high as you can go in the cockpit will be just fine. You will get the same effect as if you went through the firewall.

[Mueller]

sorry about busting your chops....I read your post as if you HAD already done all of your research...not that you still are.....my bad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


adding your location would help as well, since there could be someone local that can point you in the right direction for material and fabrication.....with metal, trying to purchase in low volume and shipping can get very, very expensive

[ChrisFoley]

While I agree with Brad that there is no need to go through the bulkheads for a non-roll cage stiffening solution, but I don't like that tubing setup. I don't think it would help the suspension weak points at all.
The Engman longitudinal reinforcement is far less work, will substantially cut down on flex, and doesn't get in the way.
The other two long. reinforcement types are a bit of work because some things have to be cut off to make room, but they do stiffen things up a bit more. The Brad Mayeur parts are very heavy gauge and install with relative ease. I just think they are unnecessarily heavy for what they are intended to do, and they make mounting the outer rockers more work. Usually these reinforcements are added when repairing rust. I am currently adding a set of clamshells to a car in my shop, along with a lot of rust repairs.

One thing about the parts I showed you - I have never tried to install them on a car with stock fenders and I'm not sure about the difficulty of doing that. The main reason for no price on the website yet is I haven't sold these separately before, only as part of a larger job I was doing.
I think $140 for the set would be about right, based on 2 hrs labor and a little $$ for the material.
I will take a look at the difficulty factor tomorrow at my shop, using the car I have up on my rotisserie for a test subject. I should be able to get a pic of the other reinforcement I described, from one of my cars.

[corpselaurel]

Mike I am in atlanta GA.

Chris, thanks. Well if I go with the engman kit and if you can fab up those pieces (assuming I can install them with the stock fenders) I think I will go ahead and do it now (since it seems everyone agrees) before por15ing the longs etc.

I don't mind the extra work of installing the clam shells if you think they stiffen better. I read a post of yours in my older thread where you said I don't need both (engman's and the clam shells). Cost is almost the same. I wonder if RD still gives the sale price? I need to email them.

EDIT: I guess I will not get the 10 piece kit since most agree that it doesn't do much if anything.
(let me know if I am wrong before I por15 everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) I read that some pieces are good but are they good enough to order the kit?

[ChrisFoley]

Here's one of the reasons the clamshells are more work. You have to cut off the door sills. It's probably a good idea to buy new ones at the same time as you get the clamshells.
They are stronger because they have a horizontal component top and bottom, and they extend all the way back to the outer susp. console.

[corpselaurel]

Here's one of the reasons the clamshells are more work.  You have to cut off the door sills.  It's probably a good idea to buy new ones at the same time as you get the clamshells.
They are stronger because they have a horizontal component top and bottom, and they extend all the way back to the outer susp. console.

Hmm, that pic looks scary. My car doesn't seem to be very rusty in that location and I already have the longs stripped....

The spring rates aren't what causes the cracking. It's the sticky tires that increase the G loading.
According to Brad Roberts there is one more area that is prone to cracks, but I have never seen it. The area is at the rear of the main frame rail where it meets the rear engine comp. bulkhead. Apparently inside is a joint with inadequate welding between the panels which might fail due to high spring rates and 6 cyl engines which add a lot of weight to the car.

Is there a fix to this or is it something I don't need to worry about? (might as well take car of everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) )

EDIT: I mean this other area. I guess since you have not seen it I should be okay.

Thanks for all the help everyone, I know I come across as an ass or an idiot - I repeat myself a lot becuase I want to be sure. I don't want to hack and weld and then find out it was a mistake. I have never raced a 914 (this is my first) so I don't know much.

[TimT]

Tubing from Hoerr

More tubing from Hoerr

Hoerr is in Peoria, Ill

Coleman also sells DOM tubing

Most local steel suppliers have or can get DOM.

[ChrisFoley]

Is there a fix to this or is it something I don't need to worry about? (might as well take car of everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) )

EDIT: I mean this other area. I guess since you have not seen it I should be okay.

This was covered in an old topic with pictures, but I have no idea of what search criteria to use. Brad is really the expert on this one. I believe he suggested opening the area up and welding the weak spot with a reinforcement, then closing it back up. Cars with full cages don't seem to need the fix.

Today I determined that my outer console reinforcement is not too difficult to add to a stock fendered car. In fact I will be doing it to the silver/green car I am working on as soon as the clamshells are welded in place.
Here's a pic of the tubular brace I like for the inner console.

[ChrisFoley]

Oh,
I stock the 1" x .083w tube I use for these braces. I'd be happy to sell you some short pieces for this if you're buying the other parts.
I just don't want to become a specialty tubing supply house. Other companies already have that market sewn up, like Dillsburg Airplane Works in PA.

[corpselaurel]

Oh,
I stock the 1" x .083w tube I use for these braces. I'd be happy to sell you some short pieces for this if you're buying the other parts.
I just don't want to become a specialty tubing supply house. Other companies already have that market sewn up, like Dillsburg Airplane Works in PA.

Chris thanks. I really appreciate all the help. I sent you a pm.