Where to get tubes for cage/stiffening?, Also what kind? Options

[corpselaurel]

I need some tubing to stiffen the 914 and tie into the rear and front shock towers.

What type and size should I use and where should I get it? I was thinking maybe 1 in from mcmaster.com or something.

[corpselaurel]

Well mcmaster isn't working.

What size DOM tubing should I use? Any suppliers on the net?

[machina]

there must be a commercial supplier in your area.

just tell them you need DOM tubing. My cage is built with 1.5" tubing .095" thickness. This is the standard size tubing for a car that is near 2000 lbs.

dr

[corpselaurel]

Thanks I have seen a lot of metal places (huge buildings while driving and some in the phone book) I will call them up.

How much does it usually cost?

[Mueller]

I need some tubing to stiffen the 914 and tie into the rear and front shock towers.

What type and size should I use and where should I get it? I was thinking maybe 1 in from mcmaster.com or something.

nothing personal, but this sounds like a recipe for disaster....

a couple of q's:

why the shock towers?

where is this "flexing" you think it going on?

do you have a cage?

do you have an inner long. reinforcements kit?

is the overall chassis solid? (floors, longs, rear box section under the battery)

are a certified welder or have years of experiance?

i'm not trying to be an @ss, but you can quickly turn your car into a dangerous pile of $hit if you are not careful

with our 914's, you need to make sure the cabin area is taken care of first, if you leave the area in between the firewalls bone stock and strengthen up every other location, you will put undo stress on the floor/longs and increase the chance of having the car fold up in half on you

[Brett W]

Check out TW metals. They may have a local distribution area.

[corpselaurel]

nothing personal, but this sounds like a recipe for disaster....
a couple of q's:
why the shock towers?

1
2
Not my car:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1041567976.jpg)

where is this "flexing" you think it going on?

From what I have been reading: everywhere.

do you have a cage?

No and I don't want a full cage. Maybe a bolt in later that I can remove.

do you have an inner long. reinforcements kit?

No and I won't need it when I am done.

is the overall chassis solid? (floors, longs, rear box section under the battery)

Pretty solid except for some small holes in the floor. The upper firewall is kinda bad and so is the battery tray area (gone). Longs are perfect inside the cabin I have to double check the hell hole though.

are a certified welder or have years of experiance?

No and no. But practice makes perfect and mig is not that hard.

i'm not trying to be an @ss, but you can quickly turn your car into a dangerous pile of $hit if you are not careful

Thanks for your concern and help I do appreciate it. If I am being an idiot tell me.

with our 914's, you need to make sure the cabin area is taken care of first, if you leave the area in between the firewalls bone stock and strengthen up every other location, you will put undo stress on the floor/longs and increase the chance of having the car fold up in half on you

That was NEVER my intention. I will reinforce the inner longs at the same time similar to this
but not exact:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1042595788.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1042683855.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1042218159.jpg)

[Andyrew]

Practicing welding does not make perfect, it makes better.

I can weld, but....

I wouldnt trust my welds to something like this. For fear of getting something too hot, and warping it, and possibly blowing through the sheet metal (hey, I did it to my clutch tube.. I want hydrolic now... lol).

I am planning on doing some bracing to the engine to trunk firewall becaust I have to cut a hole in the firewall. Nothing dramatic, just one tube on the top, and one tube connecting both rear shock towers.
Remember, it adds weight!!!

Andrew

[seanery]

I agree. Practice does help. IF, if, if you know what a good weld looks like. You can make a really pretty weld that doesn't penetrate, and you can make a really ugly weld that penetrates. Have someone that KNOWS tech you.

[Andyrew]

Two things I always say is Hot weld, and cold weld.. I normally do a really hot weld, which risks warping, but I havent welded anything that really would suffer from that little amount of warpage. But it is very very very strong.

If it looks like a cold weld, I do it again and make sure I get it nice and hot (ie get both pieces of metal hot/melting..

Get some doors and practice...

I think theres some welding books out there...

Andrew

[TimT]

K... have to step in

when you weld you want the heat in as small a weld area as you can.....no need to get the whole piece to hot.. get everything as clean as can be.... and spend extra time fiting things... then get yourself comfy and make some sparks

[ablose58]

I agrre w/TimT, fittment is one secret to a good fab job!!!! Also you want to be hot so you have good penetration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) Good luck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/froggy.gif)

[corpselaurel]

Much like how I wasn't planning on blindly tubing my car (in fact I got the idea from this forum from people who race and have experienced problems) I wouldn't attempt to weld it myself unless I was confident in my abilities. I have been welding for a while and before I even started my first bead I had several books and articles under my belt.

It seems (from the replies) that most people on this board don't expect much from others as far as knowlege and reasearch goes. That is great for the noobs (as they get complete help and information) but I just feel a bit insulted. I would NEVER start a project or speak on a subject on which I had no clue about. I have noticed a lot of people defending to death things that if they had done a bit of reasearch they would know how wrong they are. (not in this thread I am just ranting)

I really appreciate all the help and advice thanks a lot.

[Mueller]

It seems (from the replies) that most people on this board don't expect much from others as far as knowlege and reasearch goes.

really, then why ask what you did? you should know the answers or at least have a better idea...had you read something like this:

rollbar FAQ
or
PCA-GGR rule book

and asked for a specific size (ID and OD) and type and larger than 1" in diameter, it would have given you a little bit more credibility on your knowledge and skill base.

too me, you have not done enough homework on the subject before posting questions like you want to believe:

What type and size should I use and where should I get it? I was thinking maybe 1 in from mcmaster.com or something.

and what if someone did say, "no, you can use 3/4" tubing from Mcmaster-carr"......would you be 100% satisfied and go ahead and start cutting and welding just because your read here that it would be okay??

this is a subject that is not cut and dry, it is not for your average person to answer...and the professionals may not want to answer it due to liability reasons

[ChrisFoley]

Did someone say Professional?

I think I'm qualified to field this one on that basis, having owned a welding business for over 16 years.

corpeslaurel,
No offense intended, but what you propose doing looks like a waste of effort IMPO. For the amount of work involved it will not improve the car as much as you hope, and may cause enough distortion that you will be quite disappointed. Kind of the same as the 10 pc chassis stiffening kits and boxed trailing arms, which are more hype than they are worth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)
The Brad Mayeur kit, the clamshell pieces, or the Engman long. kit are plenty adequate to stiffen the center of the chassis if a roll cage is not part of the plan. The Engman kit requires the least preparation, but the least increase in stiffness IMO.
The suspension area is plenty stiff for street driving and autocross until major upgrades to the handling potential are made.
Apart from the flex in the center of the chassis the other areas which can use some help are the inner and outer suspension consoles of the rear suspension. They have a tendency to eventually crack or tear spot welds when the car is heavily used for competition. Adding sheetmetal strategically to these areas will spread the loads so the weak points aren't stressed anymore.
I can provide more detailed information if needed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TimT]

OK.. Corpselaurel?

what got your undies in a knot with this thread?

Racer Chris welds professionally..

I weld and write welding procedures profesionally!!

Im a profesional engineer.. structural is my niche.. bridges et al. I get my skills recertified every third year by the American Welding Society.

whats your beef?

read the rules... build your cage...

In the information age it shouldnt be to hard to find a supplier of DOM tubing..

[URY914]

There are stock car supplier sites that sell DOM tubing direct. Not too hard to find. "Goggle" roll bar and see what happens.

Paul

[corpselaurel]

really, then why ask what you did? you should know the answers or at least have a better idea...had you read something like this:

rollbar FAQ
or
PCA-GGR rule book

and asked for a specific size (ID and OD) and type and larger than 1" in diameter, it would have given you a little bit more credibility on your knowledge and skill base.

too me, you have not done enough homework on the subject before posting questions like you want to believe:

and what if someone did say, "no, you can use 3/4" tubing from Mcmaster-carr"......would you be 100% satisfied and go ahead and start cutting and welding just because your read here that it would be okay??

this is a subject that is not cut and dry, it is not for your average person to answer...and the professionals may not want to answer it due to liability reasons

Your right I have not done enough homework, considering this thread is right at the beginning of the research following the posts I have read on this site. I started asking about the tubing a few days ago. If you want to search I had a thread a few days ago in which I stated that this will happen next summer. The coming year worth of prep and research should prove enlightening.

I asked what type of tubing I should use from you guys since I have never done anything like this before. I don't see why all of you seem pissed at me for doing research and asking questions or because I stated that I do research and have done research on welding. You are right I have not done enough on this subject. I have searched this site to begin with and will continue my research throughout the following year. Why do you seem so pissed?
What I said still stands - you are doing it right now. Why did I ask - to learn. I think you took what I said the wrong way. My point was that I have/will research every aspect of any project BEFORE I start. That is why I asked. This post is part of it. I was offended because everyone seems to think the exact opposite that I will just jump into things without thinking it through.

Did someone say Professional?

I think I'm qualified to field this one on that basis, having owned a welding business for over 16 years.

corpeslaurel,
No offense intended, but what you propose doing looks like a waste of effort IMPO. For the amount of work involved it will not improve the car as much as you hope, and may cause enough distortion that you will be quite disappointed. Kind of the same as the 10 pc chassis stiffening kits and boxed trailing arms, which are more hype than they are worth.  
The Brad Mayeur kit, the clamshell pieces, or the Engman long. kit are plenty adequate to stiffen the center of the chassis if a roll cage is not part of the plan. The Engman kit requires the least preparation, but the least increase in stiffness IMO.
The suspension area is plenty stiff for street driving and autocross until major upgrades to the handling potential are made.
Apart from the flex in the center of the chassis the other areas which can use some help are the inner and outer suspension consoles of the rear suspension. They have a tendency to eventually crack or tear spot welds when the car is heavily used for competition. Adding sheetmetal strategically to these areas will spread the loads so the weak points aren't stressed anymore.
I can provide more detailed information if needed.

Thanks I could def. use professional advice. Will reinforcing the suspension consoles with tubing not help with the cracking and tearing? I got the impression it would from the posts I have read. (see the links in my other post). I thought that since the tubing reinforcement would help I would run some across the length of the longs and the lower firewall (the same pieces engmans reinforces) so that the kit would not be necc. (hard to explain how exactly with out a diagram)

If I am wrong by all means tell me how to prevent the tearing and separating so that I can run higher spring rates in the rear with no worries.

OK.. Corpselaurel?

what got your undies in a knot with this thread?

Racer Chris welds professionally..

I weld and write welding procedures profesionally!!

Im a profesional engineer.. structural is my niche.. bridges et al. I get my skills recertified every third year by the American Welding Society.

whats your beef?

read the rules... build your cage...

In the information age it shouldnt be to hard to find a supplier of DOM tubing..

Beef? None at all. I didn't say I was pissed, just offended. I know about fitment and prep work. I wouldn't trust myself if I had no clue. Who said I was pissed? Was it wrong to ask you guys? You race, you own the same type of car. Chances are you have worked on it more than I have. Thought you might have a preferred supplier. Sorry.

There are stock car supplier sites that sell DOM tubing direct. Not too hard to find. "Goggle" roll bar and see what happens.

Paul

Already have. Just thought I would ask about type and maybe you guys had a preferred supplier.

Well, sorry to intrude on your little club. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Jeff Bonanno]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

you can do it and these guys can help.

[LS6/914]

Here is my input to the question. In Washington I use Art Morrison for Certified thickness roll cage tubing. His products meet NHRA sonic thickness checks. His business offers mild, DOM, aluminum. & 4130. He has bent tubing for me to fit specific requirements. Excellent shop. They also offer videos on cage installation. (www.artmorrison.com) Good Luck, Larry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)