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> Jim Kelly's V8 re-conversion
jimkelly
post Aug 30 2011, 04:50 PM
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no budget for pretty - the car will look the same when it leaves as it did when it arrived - but don't tell that to the car : ))

primarily only suspension, brakes, steering and engine bay improvements currently in the plan.

jim


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9viaGK6NA7M


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QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ Aug 30 2011, 03:42 PM) *

Jim's car was cool before getting reworked. I'm excited to see what it can do after. I actually hope you don't make it too pretty. I loved the rough edges.
Zach
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stewteral
post Aug 30 2011, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 30 2011, 06:52 AM) *

it is definitley best to do it right the first time.

i'll be about about $12k into mine after scott is done.

look at this list - not of my car but in general to do a 914 v8.

numbers are a mess and do not include most labor.

$2000 914 roller
$2000 complete sand blast
$2000 metal work
$3000 paint and body
$2000 suspension and brakes parts
$1000 all new weather rubber
$300 front and rear sway bars
$500 fiberglass bumpers
$500 new tires
$500 polished wheels
$3500 complete crate sbc 350
$3000 renegade kit and cooling
$200 elec fuel pump and filter
$300-$600 headers exhaust and mufflers
$600 engman inner long kit installed
$800 rebuilt trans

$21.7k total cost for narrow body, stock suspension
$26.7k total cost for wide body, 911 front suspension

for wide body add ... $3000 steel flares - or - (about $1500 fiber flares)
$1000 911 front suspension
$200 914 rear drilled for 5 lug
$3000 metal flares $800 and installed properly.
$500 5 lug wheels

+interior
+headlight mechanism rebuild
+new glass
+new lenses
+new harnesses - find fabricator


Hi Jim,

It appears you're doing a great job on your conversion car and willing to invest the $$

A couple questions:
-with only 200 HP, aren't you itching to pump a few more out with a mild cam?
I've heard a rule-of-thumb that the 901 can take 300 - 350 reliably.

-Of course, the next question: do you have any idea how your trans plate was beat up so badly? I'm interested in your experience and what you think is the max safe HP (Torque, actually) that the 901 trans can take.

Also, if you've chewed up a stock plate, and say you want to do things right the first time, what about going for the much stronger after-market bearing plate?

Best,
Terry
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stewteral
post Aug 30 2011, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE(scotty b @ Aug 29 2011, 06:12 PM) *

Jim dropped his car off to have me re-do the V8 ( 307 ) install he and Rod did a few years ago. This time around it will be getting the complete Renegade treatment, a new set of Dr. Sheas handi work. Elephant poly bronze bushings, sway bars, 108 c.v.'s. Some BIG ass sway away axles, and a lot of cleaning / detailing. I got started last friday pulling the engine and trans at the last minute before leaving for Matts party. Dr. Evil was going to do a quilie rebuild prior to the party's start. Once we opened up the box, the truth became known. Unfortunaely Jim's intermediate plate was shot. One of the worst Mikes has seen, so Mike took the stack back home to install a good plate, and do the gear swapping. I got to the shop today to find most of the area was tornm to shreds from Irene, so without power or water I couldn't do much other than tear the engine most of the way down. No way to get the flywheel ff until I have power back on so I can' mount it on an engine stand yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I was in such a rush on friday I didn't get any pics of the whole car so you'll just have to deal with what I took today (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I must say, this car IMHO has the PERFECT amount of horsepower. Enought to smoke the tires for the redneck in all of us, BUT it is very controlable, and can take off from a dead stop without lighting the rubber up. BOLTS in a straight line and still hangs onto the apex like a 914 should and sounds like a mythological beast in heat. This is the best of both worlds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) I am hooked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

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Dr Evil
post Aug 30 2011, 05:39 PM
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Aftermarket bearing plate is snake oil. The trans obviously suffered a loss of a forward input shaft bearing in the past that lead to the shaft warping the plate due to someone using it and not paying attention to the signs. All the Al plate would do is allow other stuff to break....like your wallet. I dont need them and I dont use them. I install them when asked, but only after I communicate my disbelief in them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)
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stewteral
post Aug 30 2011, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE(scotty b @ Aug 29 2011, 06:12 PM) *

Jim dropped his car off to have me re-do the V8 ( 307 ) install he and Rod did a few years ago. This time around it will be getting the complete Renegade treatment, a new set of Dr. Sheas handi work. Elephant poly bronze bushings, sway bars, 108 c.v.'s. Some BIG ass sway away axles, and a lot of cleaning / detailing. I got started last friday pulling the engine and trans at the last minute before leaving for Matts party. Dr. Evil was going to do a quilie rebuild prior to the party's start. Once we opened up the box, the truth became known. Unfortunaely Jim's intermediate plate was shot. One of the worst Mikes has seen, so Mike took the stack back home to install a good plate, and do the gear swapping. I got to the shop today to find most of the area was tornm to shreds from Irene, so without power or water I couldn't do much other than tear the engine most of the way down. No way to get the flywheel ff until I have power back on so I can' mount it on an engine stand yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I was in such a rush on friday I didn't get any pics of the whole car so you'll just have to deal with what I took today (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I must say, this car IMHO has the PERFECT amount of horsepower. Enought to smoke the tires for the redneck in all of us, BUT it is very controlable, and can take off from a dead stop without lighting the rubber up. BOLTS in a straight line and still hangs onto the apex like a 914 should and sounds like a mythological beast in heat. This is the best of both worlds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) I am hooked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Hey Scotty,

A word of caution: DO NOT USE THE CHEAP PLASTIC 90 Degree ELBOWS that Renegade supplies with their kit. From personal experience (happily, not on my car) I have seen that they soften from normal engine heat and then COLLAPSE!

On my car, I scrounged around plumbing houses and found the same parts in BRASS!

Best,
Terry
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scotty b
post Aug 30 2011, 05:47 PM
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[quote name='stewteral' date='Aug 30 2011, 03:24 PM' post='1532342']
[quote name='jimkelly' post='1532123' date='Aug 30 2011, 06:52 AM']


A couple questions:
-with only 200 HP, aren't you itching to pump a few more out with a mild cam?
I've heard a rule-of-thumb that the 901 can take 300 - 350 reliably.

-Of course, the next question: do you have any idea how your trans plate was beat up so badly? I'm interested in your experience and what you think is the max safe HP (Torque, actually) that the 901 trans can take.

Also, if you've chewed up a stock plate, and say you want to do things right the first time, what about going for the much stronger after-market bearing plate?

Best,
Terry
[/quote]

Terry if you took a ride in Jim's car I doubt you'd feel the need for MORE h.p. With these cars as light as they are, and Jim running stock 4 bolt Fuchs on relatively skinny tires, much more power and you wouldn't get it to hook up. I am going to get Jims car on a dyno before it goes back to him because I am very curious as to the actual h.p. he has. I'm guessing it to be close to 230, maybe even a bit more. I'm also going to give it a shake down run with the go-pro so you guys will have some good video to judge by.
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jimkelly
post Aug 30 2011, 05:49 PM
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really - i did not do any hard launches - at worst - i put it in gear got rolling - then peddle to the metal - no side stepping the clutch at 4000 rpm - and did not notice the plate problem when we were rebuilding it - probably did not know what to look for - that said, it shifted pretty damn good - but hey - i remember my wife sitting in copilot seat having to use a bungee cord to keep my car in 5th gear on the hwy on route to0 an ecc years ago : )

here is the deal - 901's are cheap an plentiful - if i like the gear ratios i asked evil to do for me - i will get him to build a few that way - as backups.

if i was goi to beat the shit out of my car - i would definitely do a 930 box - but even runnig that inverted is gonna cost $$$ $5000 +-

jim

QUOTE(Dr Evil @ Aug 30 2011, 04:39 PM) *

Aftermarket bearing plate is snake oil. The trans obviously suffered a loss of a forward input shaft bearing in the past that lead to the shaft warping the plate due to someone using it and not paying attention to the signs. All the Al plate would do is allow other stuff to break....like your wallet. I dont need them and I dont use them. I install them when asked, but only after I communicate my disbelief in them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

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stewteral
post Aug 30 2011, 05:57 PM
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[quote name='scotty b' date='Aug 30 2011, 04:47 PM' post='1532356']
[quote name='stewteral' date='Aug 30 2011, 03:24 PM' post='1532342']
[quote name='jimkelly' post='1532123' date='Aug 30 2011, 06:52 AM']


A couple questions:
-with only 200 HP, aren't you itching to pump a few more out with a mild cam?
I've heard a rule-of-thumb that the 901 can take 300 - 350 reliably.

-Of course, the next question: do you have any idea how your trans plate was beat up so badly? I'm interested in your experience and what you think is the max safe HP (Torque, actually) that the 901 trans can take.

Also, if you've chewed up a stock plate, and say you want to do things right the first time, what about going for the much stronger after-market bearing plate?

Best,
Terry
[/quote]



Terry if you took a ride in Jim's car I doubt you'd feel the need for MORE h.p. With these cars as light as they are, and Jim running stock 4 bolt Fuchs on relatively skinny tires, much more power and you wouldn't get it to hook up. I am going to get Jims car on a dyno before it goes back to him because I am very curious as to the actual h.p. he has. I'm guessing it to be close to 230, maybe even a bit more. I'm also going to give it a shake down run with the go-pro so you guys will have some good video to judge by.
[/quote]

You have a point about skinny tires and limited suspension work that 200 HP is comfortable. Watching the video, the car seemed a bit slow to me.

However, in my car I have a built 383 with around 500 HP and EXTENSIVE suspension work, huge brakes, 930 trans and find it very stable when on-track or
out on Mulholland Hwy as I was last Sunday. It's a joy to hammer with!

So, it all comes down to prespective (or HP point of reference) and what one wants to drive.

Best,
Terry
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jimkelly
post Aug 30 2011, 06:23 PM
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i got a buddy that drag races his 914 with 9" slicks and i think he had 400 hp in his at one time when he was running a 901 trans but they kept blowing up his trans's so he put a billet intermediate plate and built a girdle for it - to hold it together - did not work. finally he installed a powerglide and put FI and turbo on engine.


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mepstein
post Aug 30 2011, 06:25 PM
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Delaware's only 14 miles wide at it's middle. If Jim goes too fast he'll be in the ocean.
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okieflyr
post Aug 30 2011, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Aug 30 2011, 08:25 PM) *

Delaware's only 14 miles wide at it's middle. If Jim goes too fast he'll be in the ocean.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)
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okieflyr
post Aug 30 2011, 07:09 PM
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Jim you'll really enjoy having the refined mechanicals. It will continue to be a really cool sleeper until they see and hear the exhaust, and then it will be to late for them anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)
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gandalf_025
post Aug 30 2011, 07:11 PM
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Not looking to hijack the thread..
But I remember an old Hot Rod Magazine that had a big article on the 215 V8. They had a graph that showed what bore, stroke and heads to use to bring the 215 up to a 350.
I'm pretty sure they even used aluminum heads.. I have nothing against a SBC.. But I'd be curious about the weight difference of an Aluminum 350..
I have to try to find that magazine..
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TargaToy
post Aug 30 2011, 07:20 PM
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More pictures!
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jimkelly
post Aug 30 2011, 07:32 PM
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a less weight v8 - i have no doubt a lesser weight v8 would be sweet - but the bottom line is one can buy a complete crate engine online and the renegade kit online - and bolt the whole thing up ina weekend - that is the upside.

as for handling - because my car had 40 year old brakes, suspension, steering and no sway bars - it was like driving scott's chrysler 300 : ) - maybe worse.

i'll have more to say after i get it back - when it is more like a new stock 914 type 4 on a triple dose of nitro : )

honestly - i would not refuse another 50hp - but 200 more would be way overkill for my purposes. remember in delaware i have to get thru emissions. and i am just driving it - not racing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCRZ-BMejZs

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Dr Evil
post Aug 30 2011, 08:19 PM
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Jim, what I found in your box was a time bomb, you would be hard pressed to detect it without opening the box up. There was no reason for it to shift poorly. The copious amounts of RTV was nice to deal with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
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jimkelly
post Aug 30 2011, 08:36 PM
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my tool box has in it - a screw driver, a set of plyers, a roll of duct tape and RTV - do i need anything else : ))
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stewteral
post Aug 30 2011, 09:40 PM
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[quote name='jimkelly' date='Aug 30 2011, 04:49 PM' post='1532357']
really - i did not do any hard launches - at worst - i put it in gear got rolling - then peddle to the metal - no side stepping the clutch at 4000 rpm - and did not notice the plate problem when we were rebuilding it - probably did not know what to look for - that said, it shifted pretty damn good - but hey - i remember my wife sitting in copilot seat having to use a bungee cord to keep my car in 5th gear on the hwy on route to0 an ecc years ago : )

here is the deal - 901's are cheap an plentiful - if i like the gear ratios i asked evil to do for me - i will get him to build a few that way - as backups.

if i was goi to beat the shit out of my car - i would definitely do a 930 box - but even runnig that inverted is gonna cost $$$ $5000 +-

jim,

I agree with your approach: the 901s can be had for a song and it is WAY cheaper to just replace one than buy a 930 or G50. Since you car is aimed at the "Reasonable" power range, you should have a very reliable ride.

I got a ride in a friend's 914 with a stock 350, so about 300 HP. He was slamming shifts and generally abusing the 901. When I commented that he was being a bit tough on the box, he said "That's ok, I have 2 more under the porch."
...It cracked me up!

Best,
Terry

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stewteral
post Aug 30 2011, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 30 2011, 06:32 PM) *

a less weight v8 - i have no doubt a lesser weight v8 would be sweet - but the bottom line is one can buy a complete crate engine online and the renegade kit online - and bolt the whole thing up ina weekend - that is the upside.

as for handling - because my car had 40 year old brakes, suspension, steering and no sway bars - it was like driving scott's chrysler 300 : ) - maybe worse.

i'll have more to say after i get it back - when it is more like a new stock 914 type 4 on a triple dose of nitro : )

honestly - i would not refuse another 50hp - but 200 more would be way overkill for my purposes. remember in delaware i have to get thru emissions. and i am just driving it - not racing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCRZ-BMejZs



Jim,

I thought CA was the worst with smog checking, but here anything '75 or older gets a pass on inspections. This is the ONLY way I could drive my car on the street.

Sorry to hear the your oppressive fascist gov't is suppressing your God given right
to burn messy hydrocarbons!

When it comes to handling, I believe you can expect to find massive understeer!
That's where I started. To balance the car, the answer is stiffening the rear spring rates. Don't worry about going stiffer and ruining your ride comfort. I've had my car at 350# springs (410# per inch wheel rate) and found the ride was still comfortable. My guess would be 250# springs would be a good place to start.

Best,
Terry
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jimkelly
post Aug 31 2011, 04:50 AM
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i'm hoping that new shocks all around and both sway bars will tighten things up - we'll see - thanks - jim
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