Attention world, any Subaru projects being planned?, 12/9 Back up and running! Options

[Jake Raby]

Jake, email me some information on the Nikisil cylinders. I've got an engine block sitting here I may send your way if it's not too increadibly expensive. I'm going to be building a monster motor for the Boxsteru soon. precisionchassis@gmail.com

Its expensive.. These are more expensive than any Nickies cylinders to date when compared on a "per cylinder" price point. The cylinders themselves are super detailed and the work required to fit them is also extensive.

Sounds like you need that core built up to a JR28T.. Thats something I'd give you a deal on for your bad ass ride. :-)

[precisionchassis]

Jake, email me some information on the Nikisil cylinders. I've got an engine block sitting here I may send your way if it's not too increadibly expensive. I'm going to be building a monster motor for the Boxsteru soon. precisionchassis@gmail.com

Its expensive.. These are more expensive than any Nickies cylinders to date when compared on a "per cylinder" price point. The cylinders themselves are super detailed and the work required to fit them is also extensive.

Sounds like you need that core built up to a JR28T.. Thats something I'd give you a deal on for your bad ass ride. :-)

Well obviously it's expensive. Nice things aren't cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Send me some info, and maybe we can chat when you have some free time. I've got the PERFECT test vehicle for that engine.

[drdave427]

Installed a 2003 EZ30D H6 engine in mine.


Bob

I'd like to know more about this -- I just acquired this same flat 6 Subaru engine with an automatic transmission plus a 5 speed. I am trying to find some direction on which way to go with this swap.

[IM101]

Finally coming to fruition!
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;#entry1720249

Figured I'd revive this thread just in case anyone in here missed the other one.

[DBCooper]

Wow, cool. That's going to open some doors. I still get messages from a lot of people, asking where to get things. Now I have a place to refer them.

[IM101]

Here is a screen shot of the new cable shift mount for the subaru 5mt that I'm almost done with. 1/4" and three bolts holding it to the housing... goodbye flex and slopy feel, hello crisp and solid shifting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evilgrin.gif)

[IM101]

Picture of the steel as delivered, everything is going well with the production run, I will get some more pictures at the end

[76-914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap23.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t1.gif)

[no1uno]

Looking forward to more information as this progresses...

It's tough not to get to excited, though. I'm dreaming of a reliable 10lbs/hp. How much chassis reinforcement would you suggest for this application? I'm beginning to strip and do rust repairs on a 1974.

[IM101]

Thanks for posting, I’m pretty excited myself, just heading into the shop for the day going to try to get these cradles done by the end of Tuesday!

To your question, that really depends on how much HP you want to push, in your case a good 220-230hp setup. Though I have less first hand knowledge on that topic, I would suggest something like an engman kit and some of tangerine racings gear, both great 914world vendors (links below). If you were going for more, like 280-300 that’s when cage work may come into play. You may want to do a search to get more info, or others can pitch in with their opinions.

Inner Long Kit
Rear Pickup Points Reinforcing Kit
***Inner Console Reinforcement (in my opinion a must as I’m 3 for 3 in 914’s I’ve been under that all have some form of weakness in the ears)

Also let me know if you need help deciding on an engine in that hp range as it provides the widest selection of engine options. For example for turbo’d you have a jdm ej20g through several years or any of the usdm ej20t engines will be great as well. Another fun option is the NA 6cyl eg33 or the ez30d, though, set up properly, they will put you up in the 230-240 hp range.

[no1uno]

Thanks for the advice. You're right. My goal would be 225-250hp. I would prefer not to have a full cage. The strengthening bits you suggest seem prudent. I think my preference would be a turbo 4. Am I correct to assume they are lighter than the 6 cyl engines even including the associated additional plumbing/turbo? In your experience, what is average price for usdm ej20t and trans?

[IM101]

Am I correct to assume they are lighter than the 6 cyl engines even including the associated additional plumbing/turbo?

Not necessarily... for the eg33 yes I would guess the 4 cyl is lighter. That's because the eg33 is basically an ej22 with two more cylinders grafted onto the end. As a result I bet it will end up weighing slightly more than the turbo 4.
However the ez30 is a whole other beast. Perrin and outfront have said the engine is .7" or 1.5" longer than the 4cyl, I don't know exactly where they measure but the gist is Subaru has fit 6cyl in near the same footprint of the 4cyl. Now its really hard to find engine weight numbers but I would bet that the ez30 is going to be about the same overall weight as a turbo 4. I should also mention that the ez30 is incredibly reliable. It has a timing chain instead of the normal belt and can easily live up over 200k and is a little cheaper than most 4's.

In your experience, what is average price for usdm ej20t and trans?

Engines will run $1500-2000 for a good used one. Trans will be $1200-1700. For really clean/low mileage options of both it can be up above 2k.

Let me know if you would like help sourcing an engine with my kit. I just recently found a great ez30d at $1250 for a customer and I don't charge broker fee.

[913B]

Hi Ian do you have some good links so i can do some homework on which 6cyl to decide is there one that have better options (ie variable valve timing, DOHC, ... ) and easier to get running ( efi wise) than the other ? I too is interested in your
kit but i dont have an engine yet to pull the trigger. Your engine/trans source is local to you ? Would they ship to Los angeles. Thanks so much. Ted

[DBCooper]

Probably the best place to start is the NASIOC forums. That's North American Subaru Imreza Owners ...something (www.nasioc.com). It's almost all four bangers, the motors that came in the Imprezas, but there's been quite a lot of EZ30 interest in their "conversions" forum, and it includes links to other places with more specific six cylinder engine info. The information at Outfrontmotorsports.com is general and correct, but is really dated. The company is active though, a leader and a great source for all kinds of engine swap things, especially important being aftermarket ECU's. I use one of theirs that came with an excellent base map already installed, and even a plug in engine harness that made everything pretty easy.

As a general suggestion about sixes I'd say stay with the EZ30 and EZ36 engines instead of the old SVX motors, which are now old, big, and heavy compared with the modern engines. I have a turbo four but am really really intrigued with the new sixes, in fact even bought a performance two in one out banana muffler to use on a six. Those engine's firing order is only two cylinders switched from the Porsche motors, so I suspect they'd even have that "porsche sound", especially if coming out of a Porsche car. The American motors are the EZ30D, whose heads have a single siamesedvexhaust outlet. The imported JDM is the EZ30R, distinguished by a black plastic intake manifold and a separate exhaust outlet for each cylinder. Stock horespower is similar for the two motors (I don't remember the numbers) and it's really easy to plumb the D motors exhaust, but you give up absolute power potential. The R sixes probably have more potential, but only if you intend to do serious engine modifications, your choice. Don't worry that much about drive by wire throttle bodies and valve and timing control on newer motors, that can all be either used with aftermarket ECU's or easily defeated substituting an earlier cable TB. For newer engines the stock ECU's are so complex you'll probably want to use an aftermarket ECU anyway.

The sixes are all naturally aspirated. For a n/a four banger stick with the SOHC 2.5's, the newer engines. The dual cam 2.5's (1995-1997 or something like that) are the engines with the head gasket problems, the SOHC engines pretty much solved that. If you get a good deal on a DOHC 2.5 it's easy to replace the head gaskets, and the Subaru valve grind gasket sets have upgraded metal head gaskets that also solve that problem. Easy to put in. The 2.5 engines have a lot more torque than the 2.0's, so are much better choices. My son has an lightweight autocross car with a "hybrid" motor, 2.2 heads on a 2.5 engine, STi pistons bringing compression back down to 9.6 with good flow from ported 2.2 heads. A good combination for a budget performance n/a engine. I prefer relatively stock motors, they have more than enough power for a street 914 and no problems with almost no maintenance. I'm kind of lazy, so it works for me.

One thing that will become apparent pretty quickly is how much the Subaru performance community resembles the old Small Block Chevy hot rod community. Lots of clueless kids, but at the core there are hard-core hot rod people, and I mean that as a Jim Hall/Carroll Shelby kind of compliment. Cool stuff available and and a lot going on. The fact that one of the big names in engine parts is Cosworth should tell you a lot about road race performance potential. You'll have fun.

[IM101]

DBCooper: You are right on, although I wouldn't rank a good eg33 below the EZ series of engines necessarily. if only for the sheer cost savings vs power it represents, I would wager it is the cheapest/highest stock HP subaru motor in existence. I also love the 2.2/2.5 Frankenstein motor you spoke about, great value/HP.

porsche913b_sp: Ill do you one better than links, below I've copied in an excerpt from an email i sent a customer on the different 6cyl options. My information has been gathered from sites like nasioc and RS25 verified by talking with subaru repair shops and tuners like perrin, outfront, and 42autosports.

FYI I'm compiling a massive amount of information like this for a page on my yet to be released website; dealing with engines, transmissions and other common questions/build options.


-NA 6 Option-

There are four feasible engines that can work in this category. I will try to shed a little light on each and rank them, from least to most recommended for use in the 914 swap. I should add that I’m less familiar with the upgradability of the 6’s than the 4’s. But in general it is much easier and cheaper to extract more power out of a turbo set up than an NA. So bear in mind that if you choose to go 6, its more of a dead end for upgrades (without a high relative cost), but then again they all have good power levels so you may not ever want more.

1. EZ30R, Found in the 2004–2009 Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2008 Tribeca. This is basically a factory revamped version of the EZ30D. It has 245 chp stock and a wider upgrade path, generally turbo options, (people have taken it to 1100 hp). Also has VVL and AVCS (subaru’s variable valve timing) that helps to give a nice wide torque curve and 3 port exhaust heads. However this motor has a drawback, CANBUS Electronics. Basically what CANBUS electronics do is make the cars wiring a bit more simple and efficient for the OEM vehicle. The problem is it eliminates the option of a stock ecu swap, as it would require someone to take every piece of important electronic equipment and swap it into the new vehicle. The workaround is simple but expensive, an aftermarket ECU such as link or hydra at $2-3k will be necessary.
This option is my least recommended, this great engine comes at the expense of one of the biggest strengths of the Subaru conversion and that is the 914/Subaru relatively low cost to convert. The engine can be found for 2500-3000$ (plus $2-3k for ECU) used and provides great all around power mid and low rang hp/tq, basically the cost of the engine alone would be close to the cost of a complete conversion with a different engine choice (like the eg33 for example).

2. EZ36R, Found in the current generation of legacy, outback 2010+, and tribeca 2008+. This is the next step of the EZ engine series and basically a maxed out EZ30R. With 260 chp, and the same VVL and AVCS systems as the 30R, the engine is as good as it gets in regards to stock 6cly power. The drawback however is a big one; similar to the 30R it has CANBUS electronics. Also it’s got some insane geometry inside with asymmetrical connecting rods that make upgrades pretty much nonexistent. The big plus with this motor is the ability to run cheap 87 octane fuel and still get high HP numbers.
I would rank this engine tied with, or slightly ahead of, the EZ30R for the 914. The cost 3500-5000$ (+ $2-3k for ECU) is high but if you are going to spend the money to get the ECU why not get the one with higher HP and 87 fuel.

3. EG33, found in the Subaru SVX 1991-1997. This engine was Subaru’s second foray into the 6cly world, and a very interesting choice. It comes with 230 chp. Not nearly as technically advanced as the EZ series, and a bit larger but this motor does have several distinct advantages for the 914. First it has been around for a long time and the upgrade paths are more prevalent. Secondly, you will not have to deal with drive by wire and immobilized ecu issues. Finally, and most importantly this motor can be had for 500-1500 (though almost always north of 100k miles, as it’s up to 20 years old).
This is my second choice for the 914. It is a good, sturdy engine and ridiculously cheap for the power it provides but is pretty large and may require cutting of the rear trunk.

4. EZ30D, found in 2000-2003 outback and legacy’s. At roughly 212 chp from the factory, it seems to have the lowest hp number of the bunch. You can tell the difference of this engine by the aluminum intake and its single exhaust port heads (looks like a long slot or oval) as compared the later 6’s and the metal timing cover/size when compared to the eg33. It has two plus sides however, cheap (relative to the other EZ 6’s) and drive by cable, non CANBUS. You can pick this up for around $1-2k, and not have to deal with the drive by wire issues. Furthermore the 212hp mark is deceiving, both the intake and exhaust is extremely constricting on the donor car and from the swaps that have been done/ dyno’d (in the Subaru world) just upgrading to something less restrictive will put power up to 230-240 CHP.
I would rank this motor highest in comparison to the other options. Due to its modern design and timing chain (that does not need to be service for the life of the engine) it is smaller/lighter and more reliable than the eg33. On the other hand the ECU on the EZ30D substantially less expensive than the EZ30R and EZ36R. However to clarify it does not have the VVT or AVCS of the later EZ's.

[DBCooper]

Yeah, the EG motors are cheap and the naturally aspirated EJ25 motors are under-appreciated. It all depends on what you need and what you want to do with them.

EMS systems shouldn't be that expensive, though. It's been a few years but I paid about $1000 for an EMS Stinger, which works great, and $300 for a harness that made it plug-and-play. It's simple but has everything you need and should run any of the Subaru motors. An aftermarket EMS removes any need to use the canbus harness, so you can run any of those more modern motors too. And if you ever decide to change/move up just change the map. Can't do that with an OEM ECU.

The EMS page at Outfront, http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/engine_management.htm has the Stinger and other alternatives, with price indications. And of course if you want an in-depth education about engines and fuel injection you can buy or build a Megasquirt for half that. I might be smart enough to do that (big maybe) but definitely don't have the patience for it.

Outfront also imports JDM motors and I think keep a stock of U.S. market motors for sale as well, so you could ask them about cost. Their Motor Matrix page might be helpful: http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/motor_matrix.htm It's four-cylinder centric, and some of the info is a bit outdated, so call them for current info or with questions. They've been really helpful whenever I've needed it.

And no, I don't work for Outfront or have any association with them except for having received that good service.

[IM101]

Outfront is a great outfit for sure, and have been kind enough to answer many of my questions without me even being a customer.

From what ive been told, I think the difference in price you are seeing is in the capability of the ECU. I was quoted around $2-3k from Surgline, Small Car, 42autosports for a system that can run the VVL and AVCS that the EZ-R engines should run. Yes you could get the motor to run great with a cheaper ecu, but you wouldn't be utilizing the parts that make the motor so cool. At that point your paying thousands more for what amounts to an EZ30D with 3 exhaust ports instead of 1... not really worth it in my opinion...
it may be possible to do with megasquirt but im sure rather difficult to incorperate the VVL and AVCS.

The point about the JDM engines is excellent for the EZ-R engines!!! I completely forgot about that, for most 4cly I think the necessity of aftermarket ecu cancels out the savings you would get by going jdm. But with the EZ-R engines you have to go with an Aftermarket ECU anyway, so why not save a $1k+ and go jdm. Excellent point!

furthermore I forgot that Outfront supplies jdm engines, the would be a great place to get it from because its not some random jdm importer, it would help to eliminate the crapshoot aspect of going JDM

[Zaney]

Ian,
Here is a link to post #1023 in a conversion on the Nasioc site for a Suby Powered Exo car.

Look at the shifter linkage he will offer for the mid engine car utilizing a MR2 shifter.

Here is his contact info on his website.

Hope this helps you out in some way.

Also, search theBionicman on the same thread,here is a link to his youtube video with his prototype.

Cheers,
Nate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[DBCooper]

Ian, take a look at the Link G4 Storm (will control variable valves) and the G4 Extreme (valves plus electronic throttle, any motor). A couple of years ago they were about $1000 and $1500 respectively if you talked pretty to the importer. May be different today, but I can't imagine they've gone up too much. Depends on the Dollar, I guess, but it's at least worth checking current prices. Several of the Link importers (other than Outfront) also sell plug-and-play harnesses for all the engines, so you can totally eliminate the canbus crap.

I don't actually need any of this now, but saw an EZ36 motor with 22K miles on Craigslist locally for $1500. By the time I decided I might be interested it had been sold, but it got me started thinking again.

[IM101]

DB you sparked my curiosity, so i looked into it a little more. I couldn't find to much on the link G4 in relation to the EZ-R engines. I did make a few calls to some more tuners specifically I spoke with John the owner of Outfront today about the EZ30R/EZ36R ECU options. At this point, there are only two options that Outfront offer. first option is the one of the EMS ECUs at 1000-1500$. John said it would not run the full capabilities in the EZ-R heads. The alternative that will run the engines VVT and AVCS is the motec computer which will run a whopping 7-8K. He also said that he is working on a third option that will run the vvt/avcs for just north of $3k. we talked for a bit and i told him that i was having trouble finding an option that will run vvt/avcs for under $3k he said that sounded correct.

Also John said price on a JDM EZ30R is $3K for the complete engine, not quite as cheap as i had hoped but several hundred less than a comparable USDM engine.

On the ECU issues, basically what it comes down to is every tuner that I can find to have worked with a EZ-R quotes a $3-4K ECU to be able to run the VVT/AVCS. I'm sure if you had a lot of time and ingenuity it would be possible to do it for less, but from what I have been told by Perrin, Outfront, 42Autosports, and Small Car a plug and play option is not going to be under $3k.

And man $1500!!! shoulda jumped on that thats like finding a wrx engine for 500!