 Urgent help needed to get cylinder back on!, In the parking lot with engine open! |
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| Radmacdaddy |
 Oct 9 2011, 06:48 AM
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#1
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Member  Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None  |
Ok, so an eArlier thread discussed ring without pulling an engine. Well I had no choice as when the valves I mentioned in my earlier thread acted up the strain pushed likely worn rings too far and I had to break her open.
All has gone very smoothly up until about midnite last night when after 1 1/2 hrs of trying to get the #2 cylinder back on over the rings (#1 went right on the new rings) the rings are not compressing enough to go on!!!! I could really use some urgent advice everyone! Btw, in a pinch, other than this glitch, the engine came apart in under an hour to the pistons. In the van. I recon I'd have had her back in no time, had this not happened. Thanks! |
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Replies(20 - 39)
| sixnotfour |
Oct 9 2011, 10:26 AM
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#21
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 10,822 Joined: 12-September 04 From: Life Elevated..planet UT. Member No.: 2,744 Region Association: Rocky Mountains 
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If the ring is free in the groove, flip your ring compressor around 180 degree and try agian , tighten the adjusting knob.
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| jcd914 |
Oct 9 2011, 11:24 AM
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#22
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,092 Joined: 7-February 08 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 8,684 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Radmacdaddy @ Oct 9 2011, 08:02 AM)  Should I pop down to the auto store (open at 7am thank God!) and pick up a file to work the ring slot? No, that is a good way to ruin your pistons. I would be looking for a build up of carbon in the ring groove. I don't recall ever having a used piston that did not have carbon built up in the ring grooves. With the rings just sitting free in the ring grooves, you should be able to put a finger at any spot around the piston and push the rings all the way flush. If the rings won't seat all the way into the groove there is either something in the way (dirt, carbon, ?) or the rings are wrong for the piston. Jim |
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| Tom |
Oct 9 2011, 12:28 PM
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#23
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,139 Joined: 21-August 05 From: Port Orchard, WA 98367 Member No.: 4,626 Region Association: None |
!/4" to 1/2" gap seems like an awful lot to me, then again I have never rebuilt one of these engines. I seem to remember something about a few thousands ring gap .015 - .020 ".? And it does sound like you have a build up of carbon in the piston ring groove.
Tom |
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| wingnut86 |
Oct 9 2011, 01:12 PM
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#24
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...boola la boo boola boo... Group: Members Posts: 1,053 Joined: 22-April 10 From: South Carolina Member No.: 11,645 Region Association: South East States |
The old rings come in pretty handy for cleaning the grooves of burnt carbon.
NOT FOR A NOVICE: Tough spot, but shove a wad of blue towels into every crevice and blast away with brake cleaner. I would normally NEVER recommend this, but you have to clean the gaps and I don't think you can get a ring groove cleaning tool in that space/could be wrong here. NOTE: getting the brake cleaner anywhere near the piston pin or any bearings will mean you need to completely disassemble the pistons/clean/re-lube and try again. Wish I could be there with you dude. Note AGAIN: Proceed cautiously if using that spray brake cleaner without protection on any other lubricated or sealed components, even the vapor can be a strong enough mist to require an oil change 100 miles after the re-assembly. I would change the oil/filter at 100 anyway considering what you are attempting and where... |
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| vwsamba |
Oct 9 2011, 02:11 PM
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#25
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 20-November 10 From: Malibu, CA Member No.: 12,407 Region Association: None |
Take the ring off the piston, then put it in the cylinder on its own, square it up and make sure you have at least a 1/8 inch ish gap, then take the ring out and without putting it back on the piston just push it into the groove of the piston and check that it sits below the height of the piston, after this it is just compressing it right and it has to go on. all the best.
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| Radmacdaddy |
Oct 9 2011, 02:25 PM
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
I got it! There was 1/16" of carbon on the topside of the piston ring slots! I scraped it out and got it all back together.
Now i am running. Did a valve adjustment using directions...2turn after touching the valve on the screw. But I'm smoking A LOT. I know some will come out for a while. It is coming out the exhaust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) |
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| messix |
Oct 9 2011, 02:28 PM
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#27
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AKA "CLUTCH KILLER"! Group: Members Posts: 6,995 Joined: 14-April 05 From: between shit kickers and pinky lifters/ puget sound wa.north of Seattle south of Canada Member No.: 3,931 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) wondering if the bores are the same... maybe .030 over on one piston and cyl and not on the other and you have mixed them up?
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| messix |
Oct 9 2011, 02:30 PM
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#28
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AKA "CLUTCH KILLER"! Group: Members Posts: 6,995 Joined: 14-April 05 From: between shit kickers and pinky lifters/ puget sound wa.north of Seattle south of Canada Member No.: 3,931 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
QUOTE(Radmacdaddy @ Oct 9 2011, 01:25 PM) I got it! There was 1/16" of carbon on the topside of the piston ring slots! I scraped it out and got it all back together. Now i am running. Did a valve adjustment using directions...2turn after touching the valve on the screw. But I'm smoking A LOT. I know some will come out for a while. It is coming out the exhaust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) dots to the top? |
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| Radmacdaddy |
Oct 9 2011, 02:53 PM
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
In my putting her back together, what might have gone awry that she's throwing smoke out the exhaust?
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| wingnut86 |
Oct 9 2011, 02:54 PM
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#30
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...boola la boo boola boo... Group: Members Posts: 1,053 Joined: 22-April 10 From: South Carolina Member No.: 11,645 Region Association: South East States |
...don't forget to stop and change that dang oil Rad. I'm almost tempted to recommend you add some Mystery Meat, ummm, Mystery Oil and let her run a bit and clean her out again. The issue now is that you are putting highway miles on a partial break-in, works fine for old iron block Chevy's and Fords, not so well for aluminum... Stop and change the oil anyway next big stop if you have the cash... Clean the loose crap out as best you can when you uncap stuff - I recommend you purchase a small magnet on a stick and shove it "gently" up and around the innards when you change the oil - that's my 23 cents of advice...
If any of our recommendations work to get you back to Vermont, parts of your thread will deserve to be in the "Historical but Scary" section of the site... |
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| Radmacdaddy |
Oct 9 2011, 02:59 PM
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(messix @ Oct 9 2011, 04:30 PM) QUOTE(Radmacdaddy @ Oct 9 2011, 01:25 PM) I got it! There was 1/16" of carbon on the topside of the piston ring slots! I scraped it out and got it all back together. Now i am running. Did a valve adjustment using directions...2turn after touching the valve on the screw. But I'm smoking A LOT. I know some will come out for a while. It is coming out the exhaust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) dots to the top? Not s sure what u mean |
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| wingnut86 |
Oct 9 2011, 03:03 PM
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#32
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...boola la boo boola boo... Group: Members Posts: 1,053 Joined: 22-April 10 From: South Carolina Member No.: 11,645 Region Association: South East States |
...burning oil past the rings - A LOT. Remember that you are attempting a 70 mph break-in. Jake and Cap'n hopefully aren't reading this anymore without a bottle of Tums at hand. Remember that you drizzled some oil across quite a few hot parts and will see some smoke. Be nice if we had some more pictures here. Too bad you don't have a loaner IR temp gauge to review head temps under run conditions. Box fan pointed at the engine bay? What grade oil are you running? Sorry - OCD is getting the best of me...
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| wingnut86 |
Oct 9 2011, 03:06 PM
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#33
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...boola la boo boola boo... Group: Members Posts: 1,053 Joined: 22-April 10 From: South Carolina Member No.: 11,645 Region Association: South East States |
The dots are your UP/DOWN guidance. Metallurgy and design of the rings creates a good seal as the piston runs up and down - OR, not if back-asswards.
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| Radmacdaddy |
Oct 9 2011, 03:06 PM
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
Is there anyone who would be willing to let me call them? I really need to get over this hump and would greatly appreciate a chance to talk it over.
Thank you!? |
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| KELTY360 |
Oct 9 2011, 03:08 PM
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#35
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914 Neferati Group: Members Posts: 5,129 Joined: 31-December 05 From: Pt. Townsend, WA Member No.: 5,344 Region Association: Pacific Northwest
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QUOTE(Radmacdaddy @ Oct 9 2011, 01:25 PM) I got it! There was 1/16" of carbon on the topside of the piston ring slots! I scraped it out and got it all back together. Now i am running. Did a valve adjustment using directions...2turn after touching the valve on the screw. But I'm smoking A LOT. I know some will come out for a while. It is coming out the exhaust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) Way to go!!! My WAG is that the rings need to seat in order for the smoke to dissipate. Give it some miles. Changing your oil soon is a good idea. |
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| messix |
Oct 9 2011, 03:18 PM
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#36
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AKA "CLUTCH KILLER"! Group: Members Posts: 6,995 Joined: 14-April 05 From: between shit kickers and pinky lifters/ puget sound wa.north of Seattle south of Canada Member No.: 3,931 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
there are dots punched into the flat of the rings, as you look at the piston the dots on the rings point to the piston top, this orients the ring in the desired configuration. then the ring gaps need to be oriented as in a clock face: top ring 10 o'clock
second ring 2 o' clock thew 2 oil controls at 3 then 9 position. |
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| Radmacdaddy |
Oct 9 2011, 03:21 PM
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Oct 9 2011, 05:08 PM) QUOTE(Radmacdaddy @ Oct 9 2011, 01:25 PM) I got it! There was 1/16" of carbon on the topside of the piston ring slots! I scraped it out and got it all back together. Now i am running. Did a valve adjustment using directions...2turn after touching the valve on the screw. But I'm smoking A LOT. I know some will come out for a while. It is coming out the exhaust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) Way to go!!! My WAG is that the rings need to seat in order for the smoke to dissipate. Give it some miles. Changing your oil soon is a good idea. I'm getting A LOT of smoke out the exhaust & I think I did the valve job wrong. Need to find the right thing for hydrulic. I wS told 1 1/2 turns and if the valve moves then back out to no movement. Then I found if I backed off it always took less back. I realized the lifter adjusted itself inward. So then I just followed wilsons guide of 2 turn after seating the screw, but now it's running really crappy. So that & the smoke are a real prob. Wilson also noted not to go crazy over the position of the rings. I did set the top & middle opposite & the oil ring at 90 degrees to that. But smoke ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) |
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| Radmacdaddy |
Oct 9 2011, 03:37 PM
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(wingnut86 @ Oct 9 2011, 05:03 PM) ...burning oil past the rings - A LOT. Remember that you are attempting a 70 mph break-in. Jake and Cap'n hopefully aren't reading this anymore without a bottle of Tums at hand. Remember that you drizzled some oil across quite a few hot parts and will see some smoke. Be nice if we had some more pictures here. Too bad you don't have a loaner IR temp gauge to review head temps under run conditions. Box fan pointed at the engine bay? What grade oil are you running? Sorry - OCD is getting the best of me... What sort of pics would help? |
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| Radmacdaddy |
Oct 9 2011, 06:34 PM
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 28-September 11 From: United States Member No.: 13,617 Region Association: None |
I'm not sure if I've lost anybody who can assist me in troubleshooting on the road. But I sure do need so help!
As noted, smoking is consistent. I have no power, I seem to have lost firing on 3&4 which were my strong cylinders before the rebuild. This seems really odd unless I'm just way off in my valve jobs. I noted how I've done them based on Tom Wilsons guide for hydraulic valves. So not sure how that might be mucking up. I'm starting to think my ring job was a bust. Due to lack of power. Oil pressure is good. Compression is 1-132, 2-128,3-120, 4 I can't get to, but measured about 110+ after replacing that head. (don't recall it's specific). It was 1&2 I put new rings on. Plugs, 1-carbon on it, 2-clean, 3-clean, 4-slightly damp/oil. All four sparking beautifully. If 2 cylinders are not doing much/anything-what am I missing? |
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| wingnut86 |
Oct 9 2011, 06:55 PM
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#40
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...boola la boo boola boo... Group: Members Posts: 1,053 Joined: 22-April 10 From: South Carolina Member No.: 11,645 Region Association: South East States |
Rad,
Give me a buzz - I PM'd my cell # to you... Be prepared (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) |
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